Talk:Manchester United F.C./Archive 8

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nicknames

man utd isnt a nickname no one is going to call them that except on tv to shorten it. i think Man U should be up there cos that IS a nickname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.155.18 (talk) 13:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Man U is an extremely offensive nickname used by rival supporters to aggravate Manchester United fans. It involves the Munich air disaster. Could someone please look it up if they aren't aware of it and remove it from the page. I though the people managing the United page were real fans?

I don't see how "Man U" "involves the Munich air disaster". I understand that the nickname is not looked upon favourably by the hardcore United fans, but it is still commonly used by many United fans, and members of the media. I don't like it myself, but there's no denying that it is used. – PeeJay 15:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand Man Utd is just for short. But Man U is a nickname on the Manchester city page it says Man City is a nickname. That means the man part must be a nickname. On [1] it calls them Man U. http://roosterton.myminicity.com/ please go onto it (talk) 17:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Tbh, I disagree with the assertion that "Man City" is a nickname. It's similar to Man Utd, IMO, in that it's just a contraction of "Manchester City". I mean, there's only so many ways to shorten the word "City", and "Man C" sounds a bit shit. Anyway, that's irrelevant to our discussion here. "Man U" is a commonly-used nickname for Manchester United, while "Man Utd" is just a contraction, and that's that. – PeeJay 17:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. - oahiyeel ^talk 18:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

As coincidence would have it, shortly before reading this I removed "Man City" from the nicknames in Manchester City F.C. on the grounds that it is a contraction, not a nickname. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Man U was the term used in chants mocking munich. Any Man Utd fans should never use that term. ANd it is not a nickname. Red Devils is nickname. http://www.unitedlounge.com/html/correctname.htm — Marcus leong (talk) 11:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of whether they should or not, I know numerous Man Utd fans who call the team "Man U". However, I have reservations over whether it is a nickname or just a contraction. – PeeJay 13:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Marcus leong (talk) 14:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)its a abbreaviation, not nickname. Red Devils is the nickname. Man Utd have fans all over the world, not everyone is aware of this. Try ask older match going fans about it, im sure they have a story or two to tell. Have you read the link i gave?Why not ask question in there, there quite a few knowledgeable fans there. Please, remove it. Thanks.

Why remove it? People use it to refer to the club, so it should be documented. We may not like it, but that's the way things are. – PeeJay 14:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If you included every name that was regularly used to refer to the club you'd have a very long list, a lot of them insulting. Having lived in Manchester for a while, I know that United fans consider "Man U" somewhat insulting and would never use it themselves. Publications such as 4-4-2 and Football365 use "ManYoo" as a joking dig at the "fans" living miles from Manchester who use the term ([2] etc). BLACKKITE 15:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but "ManYoo" is intended to be mildly offensive. United fans who refer to the club as Man U are unlikely to be intending any malice. – PeeJay 16:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Marcus leong (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Thanks for taking that out. Much appreciated.

Don't celebrate too soon. I'm reverting the edit as Wikipedia is not censored. – PeeJay 16:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

What next? ManYoo? ManUre? These are equally used by opposition fans and yet both would not be considered in the article. This is indeed an encyclopedia - spread of knowledge - an opportunity to teach people why the phrase is considered offensive rather than sit back smugly and say "that's the way things are." Hence the reason I referred to the explanatory link in my previous edit. I'm not going to start an edit war here but there needs to be a consensus of opinion, which there currently isn't - for either edit. Fd2006 (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Is that website citable? if you can find a citation that passes Wiki's policy, then you're probably more likely to win. As it is, it's the first time I've heard that story in 31 years of following United, so it's hardly well known, and I've heard Manchester United heard "Man U" more times from United fans than I've heard that story.

So wheter it's offensive or not, it is a nickname. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 17:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if its citable under Wiki policy. I've Googled though and come up with these other references to the same explanation...

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/unions/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26135408&union_id=11474 http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/elfenomeno9/2007/08/11/To_all_fans_of_Manchester_United_READ_THIS http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070716192414AArdbSu http://mufc-fan.blogspot.com/2007/04/fact-do-not-refer-our-club-as-man-u.html http://www.gkclan.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-146758.html http://www.carigold.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=17558&page=414

Personally I'd say the only true nickname is the Red Devils.Fd2006 (talk) 18:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Pretty certain forums and blogs aren't acceptable, so you're looking for a book or magazine article. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 19:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just come across an article from issue 150 of the official Manchester United magazine that has a segment on why the team shouldn't be referred to as "Man U". It's been done in a slightly tongue-in-cheek manner, but it should suffice. – PeeJay 20:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Man Utd" should be spoken as "man united", but it is popularly writen as "man utd". the club website is manutd.com not manchesterunited.com --Numberwang (talk) 17:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, some of you here call yourselves hardcore fans when you don't even know the true meaning of Man U. Man U is an inside joke: Man U Never Intended Coming Home = Munich. It's sick, ain't it? so REMOVE Man U NOW

Marcus leong (talk) 18:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Who put Man * back in? Please delete it!

Who made you the king of Wikipedia? A large proportion of Manchester United fans overseas (as well as in the UK) use the nickname "Man U" to refer to the team, and since Wikipedia is not censored, the term should stay in. – PeeJay 22:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Marcus leong (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC) check your dictionary. Theres a different between abbreaviation and nickname. Manchester United have only ONE NICKNAME= RED DEVILS. Theres plenty of AVBBREAVIATION, Man Utd, Man U, MU.

Forget it that you/someone else dont agree with what said. Man U is an ABBREAVIATION, not a nickname.

So now you're changing your argument? As it happens, I agree with you that "Man U" is an abbreviation rather than a nickname, but please try to remain civil. Thanks. – PeeJay 21:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I also agree that Man U is an abbreviation, however it is still used in the media. On Soccer Saturday on Sky Sports, they use Man U while showing goals or results. Eddie6705 (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Sky are also using "Man U" as an abbreviation rather than a nickname. My guess would be that "Manchester United", "Man United", "Manchester Utd" and "Man Utd" wouldn't fit on the screen, so they had to use "Man U". – PeeJay 23:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

In response to Sky's use, it would be far more appropriate for them to use 'mutd' rather than Man *, it is literally the same number of characters and would avoid the entire Munich issue as Marcus has properly pointed out. It is used all the time in Australia, I couldn't count the number of letters I have sent SBS in an attempt to curb its usage. The term "is mostly only used by other supporters as a complete and utter insult" (Condor, http://www.unitedlounge.com/mb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=268&st=0&sk=t&sd=a), the origin of the Man * term is a song to insult the deceased Duncan Edwards. Please refrain from using it and let our other fellow Manchester United supporters know about its origin. See this link for details: http://www.unitedlounge.com/html/correctname.htm Thank you. Anthony aka yusongo.

I heard the "Man U never..." wind up as "Manchester United never..." - so should we stop using the term "Manchester United" as it has the initials M.U., making the distasteful acronym work anyway? Jon Cummins —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.49.56.203 (talk) 04:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

rivalries

just wondering if maybe roma could be put under rivalries as they seem to be intensifying with every match what with how some mu fans were just stabbed and the fan violence and what not —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.186.40 (talk) 06:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The chances are that United will now go a few years without playing Roma again, and by then, whatever rivalry there is now will have subsided. – PeeJay 08:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

they are playing roma again next week —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumzzii (talk • contribs) 21:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Manucho Gonçalves

This will need to be kept an eye on, as someone has already tried to add him to the first-team list.

Also, someone with more time (and energy!) needs to rewrite his article here on Wiki, as it currently reads that he's already at MU, as opposed to having signed for January, if a wrk permit is given. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 17:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

This needs to be changed again. Gonvalves has been loaned to Panathinaikos of Greece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.43.3 (talk) 08:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No he hasn't. Not yet, anyway. Manucho is still currently a Petro Atlético player, and will not be moving to Man Utd or anyone else until 1 January 2008. – PeeJay 12:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

its jan 10th and he still hasnt officially signed it is very likely that he will be appearing in the "on loan" section. until he gets a work permit. but nothing should be changed unitl an announcement is made--Numberwang (talk) 17:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the Home Office will be reserving judgement on whether to give him a Work Permit until after they've seen him play at the African Cup of Nations. – PeeJay 18:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Club Captains

May I query the list of club captains. I have no documentary proof, however, from memory I recall Bill Foulkes gave up the captainacy not long after being appointed Club captain. He simply didnt like the responsibility. Dennis Violett became club captain from around 1959/60 up to 1962. Noel Cantwell was made club captain around 1962 which he retained despite his injury until 1966/67. Sir Bobby took over 1967 onwards. Can this be checked with credible sources please. Syncronyze (talk) 00:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I can find records that Cantwell was club captain from about 1962 to 1967, but I can't find anywhere that confirms what you say about Bill Foulkes giving up the captaincy, or indeed that Dennis Viollet was ever club captain. I shall amend the table accordingly. – PeeJay 01:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Loan Players

Some clown has changed the loan players; I am unsure of who is away on loan and cannot change it. Just thought I'd point it out so someone more informed can correct this. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heracles2008 (talk • contribs) 10:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The article notes two players who are out on loan - Manucho and Jonny Evans. There are five more players on loan across the UK

Febian Brandy - Swansea City, Frazier Campbell - Hull City, Lee Martin - Sheffield United, Kieran Lee - Queen's Park Rangers, Darren Gibson - Wolverhampton Wanderers

Could this be added to the article?

Normally, these players would be included. However, since they are not listed as members of the first team at ManUtd.com, they are listed in the Manchester United F.C. Reserves & Academy article. – PeeJay 07:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The players PeeJay2K3 removed had previously (at the beginning of the season) been listed on the official website as first team players. It was only a couple of weeks after the Coventry match and the players being sent out on loan that they were removed from the manutd.com first team page. They also appeared on the official first team squad photo in August. They do not appear anywhere else on manutd.com, for instance in the reserves team. Manucho (who remains listed as on loan here) is not mentioned in the squad listing that you are siting as the only valid source either, so maybe he should be removed too? The same can be said of Danny Welbeck as he is listed as an Academy player on manutd.com and has never played for the first team. Evans only remains listed as the official site has not been updated since December. Fraizer Campbell has also played once for the first team this season before being sent out on loan. As you have said previously on this page the official site is often wrong.

The fact that there are inconsistencies in the players listed and the sources (or lack of them) that suggest they can be included here would indicate that the players I added should be reinstated.Decorativeedison (talk) 12:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested protection

I have just requested that this page be semi-protected again, due to the large amount of vandalism over the last few days. – PeeJay 12:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sponsorship

Don't United have a sponsorship with Air Asia, an Asian low cost airliner? Could that be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.26.20.222 (talk) 02:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

A recent Peer Review of this article indicated that the list of club sponsors should be limited to as few as possible. Since very few people are likely to want to know who the club's "official low cost airline" is, Air Asia was removed from the list. – PeeJay 07:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

According to kippreport.com and the times.com, Saudi Telecom is reported to have made an around $18m deal with football club Manchester United. The five-year deal that will grant the phone company rights to use Manchester United’s logo and imagery in its marketing within Saudi Arabia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arunfest (talk • contribs) 10:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Founding members...

It reads 1993 as the date of the premiership being founded... its 1992. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.75 (talk) 16:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

I've boldly reverted back to the correct nickname and sourced it. If others can be sourced from WP:RS then they can be added; this is an encyclopedia after all, and we don't want to end up in the position where Arsenal could have "The Arse" added, or "Barcodes" added to the Newcastle page. Black Kite 19:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

This section "The club is one of the most successful in English football; for over twenty years, since the 1986–87 season, they have won 18 major honours, which is more than any other Premier League club." reads very strangely. First of all it's not 'for over twenty years' it's 'in the last twenty years'. Secondly, why start counting from the 1986/87 season when United won nothing that year, or in the following two seasons either? Thirdly, why say more than any other Premier League club, when it's more than any other English club full stop? I would change it to something like "The club is the second most successful in the history of English football and by far the most successful of recent times, having won seventeen major honours since the 1989/90 season"

86.145.242.98 (talk) 20:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone going to change this?

81.153.2.248 (talk) 11:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you register an account and change it yourself? – PeeJay 13:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism Reguarding Munich Air Disaster

Someone has drastically cut out all of the information about Man Utd and have replaced it with a rather crude chant about Matt Busby and his boys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.53.16 (talk) 22:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

So what? The vandalism was quickly removed, so what's the problem? There's nothing we can do to stop people from vandalising articles, short of fully protecting the page, so why the fuss? – PeeJay 22:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism is still there. And "so what"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by VGorasia (talk • contribs) 23:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No, the vandalism is not still there. You just need to refresh your page. – PeeJay 23:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it's still there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.108.232.21 (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If refreshing the page doesn't work, try going to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manchester_United_F.C.&action=purge. That should fix you. – PeeJay 23:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

MUFC

I want to do a survey on moving MUFC page to MUFC (disambiguation). There is lots of ip user keep on Vandalism it. The problem should not be sloved in cyber cafe, but by a valid account. Matthew_hk tc 08:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I presume you mean changing the redirect MUFC to point to the dab page? (and not "moving" a page) Robert Ullmann (talk) 14:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Valuation of MUFC

The top (locked) section discusses the finacial valuations and contradicts itself:

"Since the late 1990s, the club has been one of the richest in the world with the highest revenue of any football club,[6], and is currently the second richest club in the world, based on revenue.[7]"

I suspect there's some confusion between value (shareholder value) and revenue. There may also be issues with revenue and revenue (excluding transfers).

This needs sorting by someone with access AND knowledge! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.171.87 (talk) 14:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Support

There should be more postive notes on present support There are plenty of articles where Alex Ferguson has praised the Manchester United fans. There is also an article on the stretford end part of Wikipedia where it says the stretford end was measured to be as loud as a jumbo jet Manchester United away fans are stated to be the loudest away fans in England, they generally outsing many home fans, with the most recent being at anfield in December 2007 (Sumzi, 22.54, 30 march 08) real madrid are currently the richest club in europe according to deloitte.com and liverpool are in the guiness book of records for loudest fans, not man utd.

Appearance record

During today's match vs. West Ham, both 5 Live and Sky Sports mentioned that Giggs can break the United appearence record if he plays the remaining 2 matches of the season (vs Wigan and Cup final). The Sun newspaper also had a small article about it, supposedly because a historian has found that Charlton was wrongly credited with a FA Cup appearance vs Bolton (iirc).

Unfortunately, I've been unable to find a online refernce for it, but has anyone seen one somewhere? I'd change the record table, but without a citable reference, I assume it would have to be changed back.

(I do note that the United stat site still says 759 however.) Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 14:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

---> http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={B4CEE8FA-9A47-47BC-B069-3F7A2F35DB70}&newsid=832725 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.34.200 (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is quite an interesting revelation. I'll see about changing the stats on our various pages. – PeeJay 17:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Now reported on BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/7382189.stm

I think we can change the stats now. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 19:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Updated this page and the stats page. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 19:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced. They say that Charlton never played in that game back in 1962, but if it wasn't him, then who was it? All official statistics say that he played in that game. – PeeJay 19:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

To me this smacks of United fixing the statistics to give Giggs the record this season before he gets pensioned off... Anyway the team in question for that match is currently listed as:- Gaskell, Brennan, Dunne, Nicholson, Foulkes, Setters, Chisnall, Giles, Herd, Lawton, Bradley Fd2006 (talk) 10:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Manegerial History

Obviously. It is also obvious that Frank O Farrell was the first non British manager as well, isn't it? (Namzie11 (talk) 01:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC))

The thing is that while he will always be the first non-British manager, it is extremely unlikely that he will be the club's only non-British manager for the rest of time. Therefore, there is no point in making the distinction. – PeeJay 01:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Cheers (Namzie11 (talk) 01:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC))

Ryan Giggs - Record Breaker

Would it not be appropriate to mention the fact that Ryan Giggs equalled the club's record appearances total in the match against Wigan Athletic on 11th May 2008? He has had a distint career at Old Trafford and surely it would only be right to credit this on this page? Please find below a suggested snippet of text which may be included:

‘This particular match against Wigan Athletic can be noted as a significant moment in Manchester United history, as it was this match that signaled Ryan Giggs’ 758th game for the club, a record which he now shares with the great Sir Bobby Charlton.’

137.195.250.2 (talk) 10:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps on Giggs' page (but without the word "great"), but not really apprioiate for this article (imo of course).Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 15:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say that this info is better suited to Giggs' own article too, as the record relates more to him than it does to the club. If this article made mention of every club record in its history section, the article would be nearly two miles long! – PeeJay 23:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Neville captain?

Look there's no doubt Neville would of been captain for 2007/08 but he never started a game and so never captained united all season so surely before he does that Giggs should be listed. Although i'm pretty sure Ferdinand captained more games including the Champions League Final so maybe it should just be removed or All three should be listed. What is certain for me is neville shouldn't be solely listed if at all. Any thoughts on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.168.83 (talk) 00:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Gary Neville is the club captain. The fact that Rio Ferdinand was the team captain (notice the difference between club captain and team captain) on more occasions is immaterial. – PeeJay 07:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest the whole of the Club Captain list is wildly innacurate. Whoever edited the list has included people who captained the side when the Club Captain was injured, that does not make them Club Captain. For instance Viollet and Wilkins were never Club Captains. Anyone who has had the Old Trafford tour will have seen the lounge with the Club Captain portraits on the wall. Half the players on the list here are not on that wall.86.8.9.240 (talk) 13:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The club captain list is sourced from a book entitled "Manchester United: The Complete Fact Book" by Michael Crick, and it seems perfectly fine to me. – PeeJay 15:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Well someone better tell the club they have the wrong portraits up in the lounge at Old Trafford. I've read many fact books on United with a plethora of wrong info in many of them, I know that the players on the list captained United at some point when the Club Captains were injured, but that dosn't mean they were Club Captain. Sammy Mcilroy was officially a Club Captain and he isn't on the list. Perhaps someone should get in touch with the Club itself instead of relying on a book.86.8.9.240 (talk) 16:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be extremely helpful if the club would publish a list of all club captains, but unfortunately they've not made such a list available as yet. Equally unfortunately, correspondence with the club could not be considered a reliable source, so getting in contact with them would be pointless. I have a complete list of everyone who has ever captained the team in order of the date they first took the responsibility if that would be any help, but I was under the impression that the current list was adequate. – PeeJay 16:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)