Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Figure Skating

Skater biographies latest changes – Mar 29, 2024

The respective discussions have been moved to archive 10 and 11. Please do not modify the framed section.

Infobox

Example
Full name	Full name
Native name	Native name
Other names	Name 1, Name 2, ...
Born	Date Place
Died	Date Place
Hometown	Hometown
Height	1.72 m (5 ft 8 in)
Figure skating career
Country	Canada France (2008–2010)
Discipline	Ice dance Men's singles (2008–2010)
Partner	Current partner Partner 2 (2012–2016) Partner 1 (2010–2012)
Coach	Current coach or team
Skating club	Current club, location
Began skating	2004
Competitive	2008–2018
Professional	2019–2023
Retired	August 5, 2023
Highest WS	2nd (2014–2016)
Medal record
Event Olympic Games 0 0 0 Olympic Games – Team event 0 0 0 World Championships 0 0 0 European Championships 0 0 0 Four Continents Championships 0 0 0 Grand Prix Final 0 0 0 National Championships 0 0 0 World Team Trophy 0 0 0 Winter Youth Olympics 0 0 0 World Junior Championships 0 0 0 Junior Grand Prix Final 0 0 0 Medal list Olympic Games {{FS medal}} World Championships {{FS medal}} European Championships {{FS medal}} Four Continents Championships {{FS medal}} Grand Prix Final {{FS medal}} National Championships {{FS medal}} World Team Trophy {{FS medal}} Winter Youth Olympics {{FS medal}} World Junior Championships {{FS medal}} Junior Grand Prix Final {{FS medal}}

New parameters

• |discipline=: select between Men's singles, Women's singles, Pair skating, and Ice dance. If a skater has changed disciplines, they get listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• |years_competitive=: period using the format 2010–2018 or 2010–present with an en dash (not a hyphen).
• |years_professional=: period using the format 2010–2018 or 2010–present.
• |highest_WS=: highest career world standing, using the format 1st (2018–2019).
• |medalrecord=: to be combined with new medal template {{Figure skating infobox medals}} and module {{FS medal}}.

Important content changes

• |hometown=: should only be included if different from birthplace.
• |coach=: the CURRENT coach or team gets listed for ACTIVE skaters only.
• |skating club=: the CURRENT main skating club gets listed for ACTIVE skaters only, using the format "skating club, location".
• |retired=: only to be used for skaters who retired from skating ALTOGETHER, both competitive AND professional level, naming the year or official announcement date (e.g. "June 25, 2023" for Johnny Weir).

Obsolete parameters that will no longer be displayed

• |residence=: If the residence of a skater is notably different from the birth place or hometown, that information should be mentioned in the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• |spouse=: Spouses should be mentioned in the "private life" section, supported by RELIABLE secondary sources (no tabloids).
• |formercountry=: to be merged into the |country= parameter, listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• |formerpartner=: to be merged into the |partner= parameter, listed in REVERSE order from last to first, with the period added in parentheses from the second entry onwards.
• |formercoach=: to be moved to the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• |(former)choreographer=: to be added to program list, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• |traininglocations=: to be merged into the |skating club= parameter, using the format "skating club, location".
• |former skating club= + |formertraininglocations=: to be moved to the prose part of the article, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• Full world standing and season's best lists are no longer listed on a skater's biography page. Only the highest career world standing is mentioned in the infobox, using |highest_WS=.
• ISU personal best scores are no longer listed in the infobox. They are added at the top of the detailed results section, using the template {{Figure skating personal bests}}.

Statistics sections

• Programs: use the new template {{Figure skating program list}} and module {{FS program}}.
• Competitive highlights: use the new template {{Figure skating competitive highlights}} and module {{FS placements}}. Remove regionals and sectionals from the competitive highlights. They can be mentioned in the prose if they are encyclopedically notable, supported by reliable secondary sources.
• Detailed results: use the new templates {{Figure skating personal bests}} and {{Figure skating detailed results}}. Only add junior and senior results to detailed results tables.

Last edited by Henni147 (talk) 08:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

New templates for ice shows

Hi everyone!

I have been working on Hanyu's five new ice show articles lately. In the course of the page split, I have created two templates that might be valuable for other ice show articles as well:

• Infobox ice show
  I realized that the general infobox for events is not very suitable for ice shows, so I created one with parameters that fit our purpose better. You can find examples of its usage here: Gift, Repray Tour, Yuzuru Hanyu Notte Stellata.
• Navigation box ice show
  I compiled all ice shows with existing articles on EN-Wiki in one navigation box and added it at the bottom of each article. I sorted the shows by type, but feel free to make changes if you have better solutions.

Henni147 (talk) 18:00, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Listed medals in the infobox

Hi everyone, A question is why remove WTT medals in infoboxes？ World Team Trophy is a figure skating team competition sanctioned by the International Skating Union. Why we can't putting medal informaton in infoboxes？ I'm strongly suggest that we need add it. Thank you. Stevencocoboy (talk) 05:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

See above. The decision was made to remove the WTT from infoboxes. Bgsu98 (Talk) 06:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC) I think I need open a discuss to talk again and request add WTT medals in infoboxes. Thank you. Stevencocoboy (talk) 07:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC) @Editor120918756, Henni147, Bgsu98, and Figureskatingfan: Hi everyone, World Team Trophy is a figure skating team competition sanctioned by the International Skating Union, nature same as Olympic, World Championships, Grand Prix Final and Four Continents Championships. I'm strongly suggest that we need add it. Thank you. Stevencocoboy (talk) 07:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC) I just checked that Wikimedia Commons has FINALLY (!!!) managed to make tables collapsible in mobile view as well! The collapsing issue was the main reason why we decided to remove WTT medals from the infobox. Now that this technical issue has been resolved, I actually support the suggestion to put the WTT medals back. Henni147 (talk) 07:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC) @Henni147: Totally agree with you. Seeing Asian Games can add it but World Team Trophy did not include are strangely because World > Asian. Stevencocoboy (talk) 07:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC) Agree. I was a bit surprised about the Asian Games, too. There are many top skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu, Yuna Kim or Mao Asada who never participated in that competition. However, I was told that it's an important event in Asian countries, like a small Olympics. So I don't mind if it's added as well. Henni147 (talk) 09:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC) UPDATE: Since Wikimedia got the collapsing issue for tables in mobile view fixed, I added the World Team Trophy to {{Figure skating infobox medals}} and {{FS medal}}. I see no other plausible reason to skip it now. Henni147 (talk) 10:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC) Since we’re no longer worried about the list of medals being too long, I’d long to add the respective national championships. Those are certainly more noteworthy and prestigious than the WTT. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC) @Henni147: Thanks a lot. I'll add it back now. Stevencocoboy (talk) 02:44, 26 March 2024 (UTC) @Bgsu98 and Stevencocoboy: I don't mind adding medals for nationals either. I suggest to abbreviate them with NC for "national championships" and JNC for "junior national championships". Do you agree with that solution? One thing that bothers me a bit is that "total" row at the bottom of the medal count. Since the table doesn't include all competitions, that "total" can be misleading for casual readers. If it was a medal count for Super Slam events only, that would kind of make sense, but our current list includes other competitions as well. So this "total" has no particular value or meaning in its current form imo. Would you agree to remove it? Henni147 (talk) 10:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC) For sure, get rid of that. Bgsu98 (Talk) 10:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC) Henni147, do you want to add the National Championships to Template:Figure skating infobox medals? I'm not sure about adding the Junior National Championships. Additionally, I'm wondering if only the Gold Medal in this particular event is noteworthy. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC) @Henni147: Agree but I think national event should not be adding in medal infobox. Stevencocoboy (talk) 04:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC) @Bgsu98: I don't suggest because there're many national Championships in different countries. Template:Figure skating infobox medals should be list the most important and international competition in figure skating, like olympic, world Championships, four Continents Championships, grand Prix Final, world Team Trophy. Stevencocoboy (talk) 04:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC) @Bgsu98 and Stevencocoboy: So if I got you right, no national medals in the infobox then? It's odd to list gold medals only because that would make casual readers think that the skater has only won golds and no other medals at Nationals imo. So either add all colors or none. Note: I will remove the "total" row from the template as mentioned above. Note 2: I noticed that we changed "Olympic Games" to "Winter Olympics". While this works well for the team event and Youth Olympics, it might be a bit odd for skaters who competed at the 1908 Summer Olympics like Ulrich Salchow. Should we put Olympic Games back for that case? Henni147 (talk) 08:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC) Ah, that’s a good point. I will revert the Winter Olympics to Olympic Games. No, I think the National Championships should be added, and yes, G/S/B. As for National Junior Championships, I’m on the fence. Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC) I have reverted the Winter Olympics to Olympic Games. Even ISU lists the National Championships on their table of major competitions on each skater's profile page. The list includes Olympics, Worlds, Europeans, Four Continents, Junior Worlds, and Nationals (in that order). Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC) @Bgsu98: Okay, then let's add senior nationals results and maybe skip junior nationals? Henni147 (talk) 20:06, 28 March 2024 (UTC) Let's start with that. I recommend linking the competitions to the general championship page (and not the individual event; ie. "U.S. Figure Skating Championships" v. "2024 U.S. Figure Skating Championships"). I'm not the expect on building templates, but maybe start with the U.S. and Canada, and I can replicate the template with additional countries as needed. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC) @Bgsu98: Good point. I totally forgot about the linking. My suggestion is that in the case of Nationals we do the linking manually to make sure that we don't exceed the allowed template transclusion size. One more thing: I put the row for Olympic team medals back to distinguish them from individual medals in the medal count table. The FS team events are no relays but a separate discipline and should be marked as such. Henni147 (talk) 20:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC) I just left a comment on the template talk page about why the team event doesn't need to be a separate line item. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC) If you can give me an example of how I would enter the Nationals on both tables (the medal count and specific list), I would appreciate it. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC) I can update both templates with an example. Henni147 (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Summary

The collapse function of the medal list now also works in mobile view, which allows a longer list (not much though because the templates have a large transclusion size). For that reason, the (senior) National Championships (NC) and World Team Trophy (WTT) have been added to the {{Figure skating infobox medals}} template.

Re-discuss Asian Winter Games
@ErnestKrause, Figureskatingfan, Bgsu98, and Stevencocoboy:

• The Asian Winter Games are currently the only listed event in the infobox which are restricted to one region with no equivalent for other continents like "European Winter Games" or "American Winter Games" etc.
• Many renowned Asian skaters like Yuzuru Hanyu, Yuna Kim or Mao Asada never participated in that event, although it was held multiple times during their senior careers.

Considering these aspects, I'd like to discuss whether we should keep that event in the infobox or only list it in the competitive highlights and detailed results section. I remember that the main argument for its inclusion was the high importance in Asia (like a small Olympics). Personally, I feel that this event doesn't belong to the infobox, particularly for the first reason. However, I do not want to make any decision without everyone's consent. Henni147 (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Get rid of it. Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:57, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it should be removed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your quick replies. I will skip this event then. Henni147 (talk) 20:52, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Re-discuss World Team Trophy
@Henni147, Figureskatingfan, and Bgsu98: Hi everyone, sorry my eng are badly because I'm from Hong Kong. In the order of WTT medals in {{Figure skating infobox medals}} is behind than National Championships is make me shocked because World > National. Remember World Team Trophy is an international figure skating team competition sanctioned by the ISU. As the meaning is same as Olympic team event. I'll change it if no other plausible reason. Thanks. Stevencocoboy (talk) 06:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree with flipping the order of events. Henni147 (talk) 08:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Re-discuss National Championships
@Henni147, Figureskatingfan, and Bgsu98: Hi everyone, I'm open another a new topic. In my opinion, national Championships ARE NOT international figure skating competition and NOT sanctioned by the ISU which is unrepresentative. The medals in the infobox should be list the most international & important competition in figure skating, like olympic, world Championships, four Continents Championships, grand Prix Final, world Team Trophy（both in senior and junior）. However, the main effect in national Championships are choosing national team members only, not specialist in others. The national Championships in medal infobox only list in senior but not include junior also make us confused. I'm suggest that the national information list in the detail results only enough and remove it in the medal infobox. Thanks. Stevencocoboy (talk) 07:05, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Since there was such strong consensus about listing Nationals, I didn't mind to add it. But I agree with the points above and support a removal if others agree as well. Note: I am not a fan of adding junior nationals. The senior lists are so long already for many. With juniors, skaters like Javier Fernández or Carolina Kostner would have 12–13 medals listed. Henni147 (talk) 08:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The World Team Trophy is neither important nor prestigious, and in my opinion, does not belong, but here we are. As I mentioned above, the National championship is prestigious enough that the ISU lists it on a skater’s profile along with the Olympics, Worlds, Europeans, 4CC, and Junior Worlds. They do not list the GP/JGP Finals, which we also list. Bgsu98 (Talk) 08:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

In the ISU bios, The GPF is listed along with other GP results in the second table. No one with a right mind would say that a medal at the Grand Prix Final shouldn't be listed in the infobox. It has been named a Golden Slam event by the ISU on their official website (Hanyu (JPN) completes Golden Slam of Figure Skating with first Four Continents title) and a Grand Slam or Super Slam event by countless renowned international news outlets, which is more than sufficient to meet Wikipedia's notability criteria. Just forget about the entire comment. >_<

Personally, I would only add Golden Slam/Super Slam events with a medal count in the infobox and nothing else. But I agree that Nationals are deemed important by the ISU and also by news outlets, which justifies an addition. Henni147 (talk) 09:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't advocating at all about removing the GP/JGP finals; they absolutely should be included. I was simply stressing the importance that the ISU places on the national championships as well. Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Okay, I'm relieved that it was just a misunderstanding :D Henni147 (talk) 13:37, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: I didn't mentioned that national championships is neither important but usually only add world & international competition in infobox. Actually in other sports, I couldn't see any national events in it. But if other users disagree it, it's fine and just my opinion. Thanks. Stevencocoboy (talk) 02:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Note on country or discipline changes

Yesterday, I realized how long and complicated the template's source code is if we sort the medals by discipline or represented country. My suggestion is the following simplification:

• Make the use of the parameters |country= and |discpline= in the {{Infobox figure skater}} mandatory on all skaters' biographies. Country and discipline changes get listed there with exact years/seasons.
• Sort medals in the medal list by event only. The discipline is already listed next to each medal and country changes are noted in the infobox above.

I believe these should still be sorted by country, but it's not necessary to specify the discipline since that is clearly notated off to the right of each medal. Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I managed to find an economic solution to group the medals by represented countries. Sadly, it's not possible to collapse all medals together. They have have to be collapsed for each country separately. Is that okay? Henni147 (talk) 13:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

That looks fine to me! Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Without medal count

Representing Canada World Championships 2021 Stockholm Ice dance Representing France Olympic Games 2018 Pyeongchang Singles World Championships 2019 Saitama Singles

With medal count

Event Olympic Games 0 0 2 World Championships 1 2 5 Medal list representing Canada World Championships 2021 Stockholm Ice dance 2022 Montpellier Ice dance Medal list representing France Olympic Games 2014 Sochi Singles 2018 Pyeongchang Singles World Championships 2015 Shanghai Singles 2018 Milan Singles 2019 Saitama Singles 2014 Saitama Singles 2016 Boston Singles 2017 Helsinki Singles

Article assessment

Hi all,

As previously promised, I've started the process of improving how assessments are done for figure skating articles. It's similar to what other projects do. WikiProject Military History probably has the most extensive assessment procedure. I suggest that we use them as a model; see Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment. I also suggest that we use their A-Class Assessment as a guide as well. One of the most frustrating things about working on figure skating articles is that the peer-review system here at Wikipedia depends upon non-experts, which means that we often have to explain the basics of the sport and defend our policies and procedures over and over to reviewers. I recently ran into this issue again at DYK. I strongly believe that setting up our review system, as other projects have done, will decrease our frustration, increase the amount of high-quality articles and lists about figure skating, and motivate more editors to create and improve articles and lists.

To that end, I've created an article assessment table in one on my sandboxes: User:Figureskatingfan/Sandbox 3, based upon existing tables for all WikiProjects and upon the one Military History uses. Please make improvements as you see fit.

There are a few points of discussion I'd like to bring up now:

1. Examples: I tried to choose a wide variety of recently-promoted articles. Please replace them if you think of better choices.

2. How do we want A-class reviews to be conducted? I see two options:

a. A more formal process, like WP Military History (Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/A-Class FAQ, with a coordinator elected regularly. Military History elects their coordinator yearly.

b. A less formal one; for example, an article would be promoted by consensus of at least three reviewers. Other WikiProjects handle their assessments this way. I'd support a more informal process, since I'm not sure that our project is large enough to handle a more formal one. If we went this way, we'd set up a way for articles and lists to be nominated, much like how GAN and FAC is done. I'm happy to set things up.

3. We would need to set up a detailed criteria specific to A-Class figure skating articles and lists, including our requirements for sources and tables, and to ensure that our style sheet/MOS is followed. Again, I'm happy to lead this endeavor.

Please discuss, and add discussion points I've missed. I think that improving our assessment process would make our lives so much easier and as I've already stated, increase the quality of our articles. Thanks for the consideration. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your effort to prepare a proper quality assessment guide for figure skating! I was thinking about compiling something similar because it's very needed indeed. I will go through your sandbox this weekend and take a closer look at the selected examples.

One thing that we should pay more attention to in the reviews is the correct use of figure skating terminology. The most common mistakes I noticed are the wrong capitalization of element names or wrong terms such as "presentation mark" instead of "program component score", "combination jump" instead of "jump combination" etc. We have to check our MOS guidelines and update them if necessary.

My suggestion is that for FA/FL and A-class reviews (maybe GA as well), there should be at least one member from WP:FIGURE who

1. is familiar with MOS:FIGURE
2. is familiar with figure skating as a sport in general
3. has contributed major parts to at least one figure skating article of FA/FL or A-class since 2020.

This member should read the nominated article at least once before its final promotion and check if the article meets our specific quality criteria for figure skating. I don't think that a coordinator election is necessary, but we can promote a group of 5–6 project members to so-called figure skating-reviewers who meet the criteria above. And if there is an ongoing nomination, we ping that group with min. one volunteer to do the check. What do you think about this solution? Henni147 (talk) 10:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: thanks for your response. I agree that it's important that our reviews should require the use of correct figure skating terminology. Using your examples, our MOS discusses the capitalization of element names, but doesn't define the other terms you list. That's an easy fix. We should go through the MOS and make sure that it doesn't miss anything.

I agree with you about the requirements for reviewers, although we wouldn't be able to insist that GA and FA/FL reviewers follow them because they're open to any and all reviewers. For A-Class reviewers, we can do anything we want, including making the criteria for figure skating articles more stringent than the other peer review systems. Our reviewers need to be figure skating experts who come to a consensus about the article or list passing to A-Class, which we, like other WikiProjects, would develop. We can create a "Participants" list of potential reviewers, too. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk)

I disagree that there should be one "checker", and that consensus should be enough to promote an article or list. If the three (or more) reviewers give it a SUPPORT vote, then one of them should be able to promote it. Thoughts? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yes, my wording was a bit bad. Sorry! My suggestion for the promotion to A-class is:

1. Minimum of 3 support votes by general reviewers
2. Among them minimum 1 support vote by a figure skating reviewer (to make sure that content and terminology is correct)

It would be bad if three reviewers gave their support, when the article still has FS-specific mistakes. I hope that this makes more sense ;) I know that FA/FL and GA promotion have their own rules. However, I still think that WP:FIGURE should have an eye on ongoing nominations and check if the articles meet the FS-specific criteria. No article with issues in terminology or content should be promoted to featured class imo. I can help to brush up the MOS regarding terminology this weekend. Henni147 (talk) 08:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, nothing to apologize for. I agree with everything you just said. Today, I will start creating our WikiProject Figure Skating A-Class criteria. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Everyone, I've completed a draft of a potential Quality scale and criteria for A-Class figure skating articles and lists, here in my sandbox: User:Figureskatingfan/Sandbox 3. Please look it over and make changes and additions as you see fit. I'm curious to see what you think. Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your effort! I will take a look and try to give a detailed response this week. Henni147 (talk) 12:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: I have read the sandbox content now, and I don't really have much to add. The review criteria for A-class are concise and complete. I also support the content and example selection in the assessment the table. Well done! Thank you very much for your hard work. Henni147 (talk) 08:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, thanks so much for your kind words. We're not in any big hurry to implement this, so I'll wait the normal seven-day period (until 11 April) for more feedback before I set up the needed pages for it. If no one else chimes in by then, I'll get the ball rolling. It's kinda exciting!

Also, I noticed that you added some content to our MOS, good work. I feel, though, that we should add sources, since it wasn't from the original U.S. Figure Skating source. Would you mind providing the sources, like ya know, where you got all that cool info? ;) Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yes. For better overview, I decided to group all the terms by type in tables with proper references. My main sources are the current ISU TP Handbook, SOV table and PCS chart. I hope to finish at least the first half today and do the rest tomorrow ;) Henni147 (talk) 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

One exciting note: I discovered that the Washington Post has cited SkatingScores.com: [1]. I think, this a very good evidence for the reliability and notability of that website. Henni147 (talk) 18:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 you really like those tables, doncha? ;) Very nice work. I can help with hunting down the exact refs, if you like; just let me know. Very cool Post article; I wonder if they've updated it since Illia. Ya know, I'm going to add that bit of trivia to the MOS. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yes, I really love tables because they are such a powerful tool to visually structure statistics and explanations. I wished that the HTML/Wiki source code for tables was a bit easier, but that's how it is.

I will try to add sources for as many official terms as possible. When I have completed my additions today (tomorrow at the latest), it would be great if you took another look and helped looking up missing sources. Thank you very much in advance! Henni147 (talk) 07:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 Tables have always been my Kryptonite, especially in the days before Visual Editor. It's still hard for me, so I'm glad you're around with your expertise, especially since figure skating needs tables. We all have our individual strengths and we fill in for each other; that's the best part of this collaborative project. Be happy to look over your great work. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Adaptation of the new "FS skater"-template

For the full template documentation, see {{FS skater}}. Note that the previous template name "{{FS medalist}}" can still be used as well.

I have edited the following pages today so as to incorporate the new format style with regards to pairs and dance teams:

• 2024 U.S. Championships
• 2024 World Championships
• 2024 Four Continents Championships

Let me know how they look! Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Looks good to me! Now that I think about it ... "FS medalist" is not a very ideal template title, since it's also used for skaters and teams who didn't medal. Totally didn't think of that. Henni147 (talk) 08:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oops. 😂 Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98 and Henni147: What's wrong？Why suddenly changing the new format style with regards to pairs and dance teams？What's problem with the past version？Stevencocoboy (talk) 06:15, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Stevencocoboy: It's mainly a format issue. We should generally avoid using slashes when naming skaters if possible. Also, placing their names below each other keeps the tables more compact in width, which is essential for proper display on mobile devices and other narrow screens. Henni147 (talk) 06:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Seeing ISU official results in Pairs and Ice Dance are using「 / 」not 「and」or alternate lines. It feels strangeness.Stevencocoboy (talk) 06:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The ISU uses various formatting styles that do not confine with Wikipedia's Manual of Style, so we have to make compromises. According to MOS:SLASH, spaced slashes should only be used for the separation of items "that include at least one internal space (the NY 31 east / NY 370 exit), where for some reason use of a slash is unavoidable". In our case, the use of a slash is avoidable, so we better omit it. Henni147 (talk) 07:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Okay it's my opinion. Thanks for your help. Stevencocoboy (talk) 07:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Stevencocoboy: Personally, I don't mind using slashes, but I know how picky the reviewers for FA or FL class can be, and it would be bad if an article didn't pass the review because of something like this. I still remember what a big fuss they made about the formatting of the old detailed results tables. We had to change almost every table cell to get a pass for FL class. Henni147 (talk) 07:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Thanks for the answer. Also your attitude are better than Bgsu98, honestly he only reverted and said that my edit was disruptive. It was unbelievable. Stevencocoboy (talk) 08:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: I gave the template the more general title "FS skater" now. The old title "FS medalist" is still working, though, so you don't have to rename everything. Henni147 (talk) 07:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know if templates allowed for redirects; I'm glad to see it does. Bgsu98 (Talk) 07:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

New milestone in figure skating

Usually, I don't write any content-related stuff here on the project talk page, but this one may not be reported by the media in its full scope:

Today at the final stop of the Repray Tour, Yuzuru Hanyu performed a no-mistake solo show of two hours length with 12 programs and a choreographed 6-minute warm-up, adding up to almost 50 minutes net skating time. The technical content included 28 jumps (among them six quads, five triple Axels, and another 11 triples, all clean) as well as 20 spins, five competitive step and choreo sequences and another 22 field moves. One of the jump elements was a 4T+1Eu+3S+1Eu+3S combination, which has never been performed in competition. To put it into perspective: the technical content equals about three full free skates in men's singles.

I expect Japanese magazines and newspapers to publish some content summaries by Tuesday at the latest, but I don't know how much they will go into detail, so I wanted to compile the technical statistics here at least.

@Figureskatingfan, Bgsu98, and Stevencocoboy: In the case that we get proper reports by reliable secondary sources, I feel that this exceptional feat deserves to be mentioned somewhere outside Hanyu's own series. I plan to create an article about professional figure skating (which is long overdue anyways), but it may also be suitable for the History of figure skating. What do you think? Henni147 (talk) 12:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: as impressive as this accomplishment is, the information doesn't really fit in any existing articles other than Hanyu's bio. It may fit into an article about professional figure skating, which I agree should exist. I'm not sure it would be appropriate for the history article, which should be improved as well and something on my own list. That's my opinion about it, anyway. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Sorry lately to response. I totally agree Figureskatingfan opinion. you can create an article about professional figure skating and add in the history of figure skating include magazines and newspapers source. Stevencocoboy (talk) 05:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your reply! Then let's limit this specific bit of info to the articles about pro skating and the Repray Tour. Thankfully, two newspapers have reported on it with technical details, so we have reliable sources.

Note: What might be suitable for the history article is the short fact that Hanyu was the first skater to produce a solo ice show. Guinness World Records may officially recognize it in their records soon, which would underline its encyclopedic notability. What do you think? Henni147 (talk) 07:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, if that fact can be supported, you're right it should be added to the history article or even the general Figure skating article (another one my list), of course. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: Totally agree. You can added it in history article. Stevencocoboy (talk) 05:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your replies!

@Figureskatingfan: These two English sources mention Prologue as the first solo ice show production in figure skating among others. They might be useful, when adding this info to the articles about figure skating and FS history:

• "Figure skating hero Hanyu Yuzuru to start gaming-inspired 'RE_PRAY' solo ice tour in Saitama". International Olympic Committee. Lausanne. September 4, 2023. Archived from the original on September 4, 2023.
• Matsubara, Takaomi (January 12, 2023). "Going Pro: Hanyū Yuzuru Reinvents What It Means to Be a Figure Skater". Nippon Communications Foundation. Minato, Tokyo. Archived from the original on January 12, 2023.

The first source also mentions the ice show audience record of 35,000 at Tokyo Dome, while the second one has some great information about amateur and professional skating in general. I will look up more reliable secondary sources, when brushing up the single show articles to GA class. Henni147 (talk) 15:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

108.26.172.49

108.26.172.49 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has made over a thousand changes to skaters' articles about programs, usually removing info and altering birthdates. Since some of the birthdates proved to be wrong and they are providing no edit summaries, I rolled back what I could, 722 edits in all. Perhaps some of them are good, but it's going to take a group effort to truly scrutinize all of their edits and clean up articles where I couldn't use rollback. Jasper Deng (talk) 02:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Goodness me. Thank you very much for noticing! I'm currently busy with the FS MOS and other tasks, but I can take a look later. Maybe someone else can check, too? Henni147 (talk) 08:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Their edits seem to have focused on using rowspan to combine cells where the choreography was repeated, which was perfectly valid and proper. None of the edits that I spot-checked showed any changes to birthdates. Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I looked things over and it looked like they did both, combined cells and changed birthdates. Combining cells is inappropriate because although the content in them was repetitive, in most cases they were used across program types; i.e., this. It was quite an undertaking to revert, so thanks for taking care of most of it, Jasper. Wow, who would do something like that? And why? The IP has had other problematic behavior in the past, but they're currently blocked for 24 hours, which will hopefully stop it. Something to keep an eye on, for sure. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Article assessment update

Hi everyone,

After waiting the requisite seven days for further feedback, I went ahead and created Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment/A-Class review. It's not completely finished; I needed to update our project banner, so I'm waiting for it to be transcluded to continue. I also want to nominate an article to test everything, which I will also do when the previous task is completed. Please look it over to see if there are any errors or anything that needs to be added or removed.

I also updated the criteria chart at Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment. Please look over that as well.

I'm very excited that we're moving forward on running our own A-class assessments. I think it will make our lives easier and make it possible for more high-quality figure skating articles and lists. Thanks to all who helped! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Excellent, thank you very much for creating the assessment page! I will take another look at it later :)

Update: I added missing values for the class-parameter and fixed some linking and formatting issues. The rest looks good! Henni147 (talk) 13:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

MOS update

In the context of article assessment, I'd also like to give a quick update on the FS Manual of Style:

• I added our MOS to the navigation sidebar {{style}} under "sports" and created another shortcut titled MOS:FS for easy access of the page.
• The sections about article structures and terminology got longer than initially planned. To make the FS MOS more compact and easier to navigate, I moved the terminology section to its own sub-page WP:FS TERM and re-structured the main MOS with separate sections for "general guidelines" and the following five common FS article categories: biographies, competitions, technical elements, skating statistics, and ice shows. Articles that don't fit any of these categories can use the suggestions in the "general guidelines" section as orientation.
• I also updated our template directory and created the shortcut WP:FS TEMPLATE, which is now linked in the MOS.

I hope to be able to complete the main MOS and terminology sub-page this weekend at the latest, so that we have a complete guide for A-class reviews from now. Henni147 (talk) 16:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 Thanks for your hard work. I have one nick-picky comment: I'd like to see a variety of examples. Currently, many of the examples you used are from Hanyu's bio, which makes sense because it's the bio you're most familiar with. Could you use other bios' examples that are also as well-developed? Possible examples of bio that I've worked on: Johnny Weir, Yuna Kim; also Nathan Chen. That's all! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yes, sure! I planned to revamp the table examples anyways ;)

When I'm finished with both pages, it would be great if you took another look to make sure that there are no errors or problematic guidelines. It's quite a lot of content, but I think it's worth the effort to have a thorough guide for common article types. Henni147 (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course! Just let me know when you're finished, so that I can look for sources as promised above. BTW, I've been meaning to tell you that although there is a lot of content, I think it's important that we have it as a resource. My username notwithstanding, I didn't feel comfortable contributing to figure skating articles for over ten years after I started my editing career here because the idea of it was so unwieldy and complicated. If there were these resources available, I might have ventured into it earlier. So good work, mate! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you :) I think, I will tackle the completion of the terminology page first. There is not much missing, while the main MOS still needs some work.

By the way: I don't know if you have read this article by Sandra Loosemore from 1998, but it's an outstanding critical comment on the judging of "presentation" in the old 6.0 system. Most of the mentioned aspects are also true for the current "program component score" (PCS), where "presentation" is one of the three components now. What I love especially about Loosemore's article is the reasoned criticism of sportswriters' sloppy and inaccurate use of FS terminology in their news coverage, leading to the negative public perception that figure skating is "no real sport" (which is still the case today). This source might be very valuable for the articles about FS and the 6.0 System among others. Henni147 (talk) 05:53, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I know about the Loosemore article; it's used in a few articles already, like 6.0 system. One of the articles on my list is ISU Judging System, so I wish that there were a comparable news source like it for the IJS. Unless there is and I'm unaware of its existence. Do you know of any such source? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Sadly, I couldn't find a good one yet, but I keep my eyes open.

What I noticed while working on the MOS terminology page: The ISU has been quite sloppy and inconsistent with the use of technical terms themselves. I added two problematic examples in the overview section. I really feel that the sport requires a full clean-up in its rules and guidelines. The current ones span more than 200 pages in total with lots duplicate or even contradicting content that no one can overview anymore. Henni147 (talk) 16:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

List of figure skaters

This article is a disaster, starting with the fact that it is grossly out-of-date. Suggestions? Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Fully agree. Honestly speaking, even if the list WAS complete AND up-to-date, there is no lead section, no cited sources, no explanation why this list is encyclopedically notable. In the current form, it will never meet the requirements of a quality list article on Wikipedia.

I also don't really get the purpose of this article. For searching figure skaters, we have the category "figure skaters", which has the big advantage that newly created biographies are automatically added there.

Taking all these aspects into account, I'd actually suggest this page for deletion. Henni147 (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of figure skaters Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! In the case that the deletion requires another support vote or whatever, just ping me. Henni147 (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Modification to Competitions Table

I have the following recommendations for the layout of the competitions table that we are currently using. It wouldn't require any changes to the current template. I suggest listing the competitions in the following order:

1. Olympics
2. Olympics (Team event)
3. World Championships
4. Four Continents / European Championships
5. Grand Prix Final
6. National Championships
7. World Team Trophy
8. Grand Prix competitions (in alphabetical order)
9. Challenger Series competitions (in alphabetical order)
10. All remaining competitions (in alphabetical order)

See Jeremy Abbott for an example. The national championships are prestigious and should be ranked higher than they currently are.

The junior table would reflect the following order:

1. Youth Olympics
2. Youth Olympics (Team event)
3. World Junior Championships
4. JGP Final
5. National Championships
6. JGP competitions (in alphabetical order by country)
7. All remaining competitions (in alphabetical order)

Any feedback is appreciated. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:57, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: If anyone has a suggestion for ordering the World Team Trophy higher, please chime in. As it is, it's toward the bottom, but it's reflected in the medal table in the infobox. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:58, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: I agree with most changes. My only issue is the (Junior) Grand Prix Final being placed lower than Nationals. It is considered a Super Slam event, the most prestigious group of international events in competitive skating. Hence, it should be placed right before or after EC/4CC, given its importance. I suggest to place the Grand Prix Final after EC/4CC and spell it out to clearly distinguish it from regular GP events. Same goes for the Junior Grand Prix Final, which should be placed right after Junior Worlds.

Regarding the World Team Trophy: I have no particular opinion about it. In the medal record by event on Hanyu's career achievements page, we separated team events from individual events, placing them at the bottom of the list, but I'm also okay with placing it after Nationals as we did in the infobox. I also recommend moving the WTT to after the Nationals in the infobox. Henni147 (talk) 08:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I have modified Jeremy Abbott to reflect the above recommendations. Bgsu98 (Talk) 09:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Thank you very much. Looks good to me now :)

Maybe one more style recommendation: We should make the format of the Olympic team event uniform across all tables. Currently we have the following mix of three different styles:

• Winter Olympics (Team event) in the infobox
• Winter Olympics – Team event in some competitive highlights tables
• Winter Olympics ^team in the detailed results.

Personally, I prefer the infobox format using parentheses. Henni147 (talk) 10:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I never liked the superscript. The endash matches the actual event article (for example, Figure skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics – Team event). I like the parentheses (but with Team capitalized). I agree that we need to standardize it. Bgsu98 (Talk) 10:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding article titles for Olympic figure skating events: I noticed that the naming is a bit inconsistent.

1. As part of the 2021 IOC Gender Equality Review Project, the IOC and ISU both decided to change "ladies' singles" to "women's singles" in all official documents. We should do the same consistently for all articles, including competitions prior to 2021 (gender equality should apply to athletes of all eras).
2. Currently, some articles use the title "Figure skating at the 20XX Winter Olympics – Pairs" like 2018, others "Figure skating at the 20XX Winter Olympics – Pair skating" like 2014. I have no particular preference, but we should choose one of the two for all articles.

Henni147 (talk) 12:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I use “pairs”, on account of we don’t say “men’s single skating”. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Fun fact: the IOC and ISU use "men single skating", "women single skating", "pair skating", and "ice dance" on the official competition results pages.

"Pair skating" is definitely a correct official term as such. The current EN-Wiki article for the discipline is also named pair skating. It really is a matter of taste which one to pick. Henni147 (talk) 13:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I know it’s official; I’m just saying we don’t use “men’s single skating” on WP, so I don’t use “pair skating”. Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98 and Henni147: It's ridiculous and disappointment. You've open a post just nine days and unauthorized changes the infobox quickly. You ignore the opinions by other wiki users and should be waiting more times. WTT should be in higher place. I also don't know why NC list in the infobox and it's unrepresentative. The goal in NC will choose team members only and represent their countries outing the competition. I never see any NC medals list in the infobox in other sports. The place in WTT is lower than NC are really ridiculous. Remember WTT is international competition and organize by ISU. To a certain extent WTT as same as World Championships in team event because it's not include team event in WC. That means WTT = WC team event version. My opinion in the following order:

1. Olympics
2. Olympics (Team event)
3. World Championships
4. Four Continents / European Championships
5. Grand Prix Final
6. World Team Trophy
7. National Championships (suggest remove)

Stevencocoboy (talk) 04:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Stevencocoboy: There may be a misunderstanding here. This discussion does not refer to the infobox but the "Competitive highlights" section. The discussion regarding the infobox was closed on March 29 after being open for more than three months.

RE infobox: Personally, I am not a big fan of including Nationals there either, but there was strong support among users to add it, based on the high importance that mainstream media places on National results (compared to other sports), which is a valid argument in terms of WP:Notability. Reasons against an inclusion were, like you said, that Nationals are no ISU-sanctioned events and very different in weight, depending on the federation. However, other users pled for an inclusion, and I respect that decision.

I cannot really tell whether WTT or Nationals is more important. On paper it is WTT at the moment, but the reality is that many people inside the sport consider it as a "circus" with very generous scoring. Some even plead that WTT results should no longer count for world records, personal bests, and other statistics for that reason. However, I don't think that the ISU is going to change that any time soon. Henni147 (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

2022–23 ISU World Standings and Season's World Ranking

I had made this world standings page a while back, but seems no one's filled it in. I certainly don't have the time to do so. Am placing the draft here in case someone would like to complete it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:2022%E2%80%9323_ISU_World_Standings_and_Season%27s_World_Ranking

Same goes for the latest 2023-24 rankings, I am guessing. Editor120918756 (talk) 07:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for preparing the draft! Sadly, I don't have the time to do it either, but I can ask around if someone is willing to help out :) Henni147 (talk) 10:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Completion of the new "Wiki terminology guide" for figure skating articles

@Figureskatingfan: With some delay, I finally completed our new terminology guide for figure skating articles, accessible with the shortcut WP:FS TERM. To have some structure for easy navigation, I sorted the terms by topic as follows:

1. General FS terms that do not really belong into any of the other categories
2. Competition-related terms
3. Judging systems and scoring-related terms
4. Technical elements in singles and pairs
5. Technical elements in ice dance
6. Titles for figure skating programs
7. Ice show-related terms

I listed the main sources at the top of the page and placed specific sources in the respective sections. I would be very happy if you took another look and added missing sources if you notice any. It took quite some time to compile everything, but I hope that it was worth the effort and helps at future article reviews :) I will tackle the main FS MOS next and update all the tables etc. Henni147 (talk) 21:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, wow the work you've done is impressive. I'm still waiting to get help with updating our template so I can start with A-class assessments. Once I get that, I'll move forward on my end. Thanks so much! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you :) Is that template edit-protected? If not, I may be able to help with that. Henni147 (talk) 08:41, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 I believe that it is. See here for the discussion on the template's talk page. If you could help, that would be great. The person I asked is being kinda slow about it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That's unfortunate because I have no user rights to edit protected templates. But I can take a look at the required changes this weekened and ask another editor in the case that the issue has not been resolved by Friday. Henni147 (talk) 16:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Update: I created this new template {{Archived reflist}}, which can be added at the top of a talk page for articles where all cited online sources have been archived at the Wayback Machine or a similar tool. The markup code {{Archived reflist}} renders as follows (the date ist added automatically):

Biography deletions

Bgsu98 has been deleting dozens of skater biographies and I don't think WP:PRODPATROL is well equipped to evaluate WP:NSKATE or handle the volume of proposed deletions involved here. If other project members are able to help review these, that would be appreciated. This list is probably the best place to monitor this activity. ~Kvng (talk) 16:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I stand by my work, although I do occasionally make mistakes. When I checked the ISU biography for Charlotte Clements, for example, it did not show her gold medals at the British Nationals. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Our first A-class assessment

Hello everyone, wanted to let you know that our A-class review system has been successfully set up. I've submitted Yuna Kim for our very first one. It needs at least three reviewers, so if you're interested, please go to: Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment/Yuna Kim. Thanks and have fun! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: You can count me in! I just adapted the new template for world record lists on Yuna's article. Now all tables and statistics sections should be fine, I just have to take another look at the detailed results. For the prose check, I should be available from Sunday onward.

Two quick comments on the external links section: I noticed these issues while working on Hanyu's biography and the MOS for figure skating:

• Do we really need those succession boxes for world records in FS? The WR scores are already listed (with notes) in the records/achievements section, so it's just duplicate info, and these succession boxes are really bulky and blow up the template transclusion size of the page.
• We may need to reduce the number of navboxes at the bottom of skater biographies. On Hanyu's page, we already hit the upper limit in navbox transclusion size and had to remove about 10 of them to get the display error fixed. I have some suggestions which ones to keep or remove; I'd like to put them up for discussion this weekend.

Henni147 (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This is actually great because I was about to ask you haha. Do you know anyone from Hanyu's assessment who'd be willing to give this a shot? @Henni147

Artemsia and I can't do this because we were majorly involved with the article for a long time. Editor120918756 (talk) 16:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I can ask Apqaria if she has time and interest. Otherwise, we can ping Ernest Krause or others from former FL/FA reviews to jump in.How many reviewers do we need? Henni147 (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"A review is closed when at least three (3) reviewers reach consensus that the article or list fulfills the A-class criteria." @Henni147 Editor120918756 (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't able to find Apquaria when I did a search and Ernest has a tag on his talk page suggesting that he might have left Wikipedia. Looks like we need to do a deeper search to find reviewers. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Apqaria is present. You might have misspelled their name. Editor120918756 (talk) 04:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 What about Yolo4A4Lo? Editor120918756 (talk) 09:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how active she is, but yes, we can ask her, too. Henni147 (talk) 09:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147 apqaria didn't reply to me, can you try? Editor120918756 (talk) 07:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Editor120918756: No worries, I already contacted her, and she is willing to help with the review. Since she is new to article reviews, I will compile the most important infos for her, and then it should be fine. Henni147 (talk) 08:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Project main page

Folks, I'd like to submit another suggestion to you all: that we revamp our project page. To be honest, I've never really liked it. It's difficult to navigate and difficult to edit, with all the subpages. There are sections no one uses anymore, not for years. I believe that WikiProject pages should be easy to use and change, so I'd like to lead the effort of making our more user-friendly. If this is acceptable to enough members, I can start a revamp on one of my sandboxes later this week. If I do it, I'd need some help with navigation tabs and tables. So please discuss! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I think it's long overdue. Artemisia (talk) 22:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Yep, fully agree. If you need help with formatting, please feel free to ping me. I should be available from Sunday onward. Henni147 (talk) 06:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

@Henni147, well yah duh, it'd be stupid not to use your expertise. ;) I'm sure you'll improve it with those tables you're so good at, but as long as they're navigable. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:25, 16 May 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: I managed to do some first re-structuring of the project page. I used WP:MILITARY and WP:FILM as examples and adjusted the tab headers for our own project. Here is a quick draft. The big advantage of this tab-system is that we no longer have to bother with these ugly panels and everything is much easier to edit. The next steps are the following: create a navigation sidebar for our project like this one for WP Military History (but more simple), which links to all important pages, including both MOS, the template repository, notability guidelines, taskforces etc. This navigation bar will be placed in the top right corner (below the tab header) of each project page. remove the lists of recognized content, tasks, and members from the main page, which now all have their own sub-pages. make the main project page more compact overall and remove duplicate content. What do you think about this idea? Henni147 (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC) @Henni147: I like everything you've done. I especially like the tab page and the sub-pages; I was gonna ask that you work on that, anyway. I added our MOS to the tabs, though. I'm still working on the main project page on my sandbox, but I've already followed most of your suggestions/to-do list, like making it more compact and removing duplicate content. Speaking of, I'm not sure we need a sidebar, since it duplicates what's in the tabs, but I'm okay if I'm outvoted. One thing I'd like some assistance with: I'd like to have some content in columns, but I haven't been successful. Could you please place the following sections in the same section as the special figures image, on the right side: Quick links, Main sections, Statistics? Thanks. My next goal is to go through all the content to improve and remove duplication. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC) After a couple of hours of consideration, I withdraw my request. Looking at what would be the new main page, I think it's short enough without bunching things into columns. Unless you think it's a good idea anyway? ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC) I believe that I am finished, with Henni's assistance, with this revamp. Please look at the draft of the main page [2], and if everyone finds it acceptable, I can move it over to mainspace. There's one more task to do: revise and update Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Tasks. That's more of a clean-up task, so it's my intention to tackle it in piecemeal, as I have the time and motivation. If anyone wants to help, please do so. I think we've done a pretty good job! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Ok, I lied before. I guess I got inspired, so I went ahead and updated the tasks list. As the tag at the top of the page states, please add more as necessary. Thanks and best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your detailed feedback! I will check your draft now and then *finally* tackle the revamp of the project page and A-class review for Yuna's biography today! Comments: Tab header: I was thinking about adding the MOS, too. However, I decided to skip it because it made the header too large for mobile view (the last tab is pushed out of the screen). But I agree that it is a very important tab and should have a prominent place on the project page. I placed the MOS before the assessment tab to have some chronology in the header: (1) check tasks (2) study MOS (3) join article assessment (4) add promoted articles to recognitions. I hope that makes sense. I think that a compact navbar is very useful, especially for sub-pages that do not have a tab in the header. I will create a draft, and then we can decide if we need it or not. That special figures illustration, though absolutely gorgeous, may not be ideal for this project page. It covers a lot of space and may actually confuse casual visitors: 'Is this really about the sport of figure skating?!' They may think that they landed on the wrong page and leave again. My suggestion for the structure of the main page is the following: (0) Introduction (1) News 1.1 Important policy changes and updates 1.2 Current article reviews (2) How to contribute 2.1 Getting started 2.2 Most urgent tasks (3) Latest featured works (4) Awards (quick list of awards and barnstars that fit WP:FIGURE). I think, the latter is very nice to give newcomers some motivation to join and improve the appreciative atmosphere in the team overall. I plan to create a barnstar for FS in specific, which is long overdue. I will create a draft for the main page today, and then we can decide here, what to include and what not. How about that solution? Henni147 (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC) @Henni147, my responses: I'm good with moving the MOS table over; it's a good idea to make it more prominent. Looking forward to seeing your draft of the navbar. Like I said above, I'm not attached to not having one. I kinda like the special figures illustration, I think it's pretty, too. How 'bout if we keep it, but include an example about their historical importance. It's an interesting aspect of the sport and answers the question, "Where does the sport get its name?" I can be talked out of it, though, since it will serve the mobile users. I like your structure suggestions, although I don't think a news section is necessary. It's not used often, not ever as long as I've involved with this project (since 2018). If someone else wants to manage it, that's fine, but I don't have the time to take care of it. I love that you're going to create a barnstar for us, I agree that it's much needed. Pats on the back to all! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Updates:

• I created two brand new barnstars for figure skating today: {{The Figure Skating Barnstar}} and {{The Golden Figure Skating Barnstar}}. The first one is for fine contributions to figure skating articles and WP:FIGURE in general, and the second one is for users who created or notably improved a figure skating article to featured class. I hope, they are fine ^^
• This is my first draft for the main project page, including the new navbox in the top right. For me, this box is a super useful tool already; I have been using it all day to navigate back and forth between the different sub-pages that are not linked in the tab header. I would definitely recommend to add it on all sub-pages of our project.
• Quick comments on the idea behind the page structure:
  • News: I made the experience that it is very helpful to have a bundled overview of the most important project updates. This includes the implementation of new templates or MOS guidelines and a list of current article reviews with links to the review pages. This section is meant to be very compact and brief, really the "breaking news" only, so that every user has a quick overview of what's going on.
  • About figure skating: I actually don't mind having a section like this, giving a quick overview of what figure skating was and what it is now. This would be the ideal place for the special figures illustration as well.
  • How to contribute: This section is a compact overview for newcomers, how to get into our project and editing, and a short list of our top priority tasks.
  • Latest featured works: This section is not only a nice way to show appreciation for featured works, but it also shows what the latest quality standard on our project looks like. Since we do not have that many featured articles and lists, it is not a big challenge to keep these two boxes updated.
  • Barnstars: Wikipedia's main barnstar repository is so overwhelming that sometimes I struggle myself to find the barnstar I'm looking for, so I think it's nice to have our own compact shortlist, which hopefully motivates our project team to use them ;)

Note: In the case that we decide to use this format, I volunteer to curate the listed sections. Henni147 (talk) 18:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147: The barnstars are great! I would totally use them. Thanks for doing that. I wonder if you should create a third barnstar, for editors who have successfully brought an article to A-class status?

I don't have time currently to go through your draft, but will add your suggestions to my draft tomorrow. You've talked me into the navbox. I also like the featured works sections; I'd like to eventually expand it to most recent A-class articles. I'm willing to write up the "About figure skating" section, probably a reference to the main figure skating article. If you curate the news section, that would be great. Nice work! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thanks for your quick response!

• Barnstars: how about adding "The Bronze Figure Skating Barnstar" for GA-class and "The Silver Figure Skating Barnstar" for A-class? Then we have covered all types of recognized assessment classes ;) I still have the sample that I created yesterday, so it takes nothing to change the color of the laurel leaves and upload them to Commons.
• Navbox: With your agreement, I will create the template today and implement it on all sub-pages.
• Project page: Then let's agree that I set up and curate the news and tasks sections, and you prepare the "About figure skating" section, when you have the time. I can also prepare another two boxes for the latest A-class and GA-class article to have all four types of recgonized assessment classes covered (in line with the new project barnstars).

Henni147 (talk) 05:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: I set up the new layout for our project page today. I think, it is much easier to make adjustments this way. These are the latest updates:

• The new navigation sidebar for our WikiProject can be embedded using this template: {{WikiProject Figure Skating Navigation}}. I already added it on some sub-pages that do not have a header tab.
• I decided to change the title of the "news" section to "announcements", which is more fitting for our purpose.
• I added the Bronze and Silver Barnstar to our list now, so we now have four different figure skating barnstars in total. I'm actually thinking about adding a "Platium Figure Skating Barnstar" for users who managed to get a full topic promoted to featured or good quality class. But for the time being, the current ones should be sufficient.
• Following your suggestion, I added the latest A-class and also good class article to the promoted works section, which is in line with our set of new barnstars now.
• I leave the "About figure skating" section to you. Please take all the time you need to create it. There is no rush.
• I will try to complete the "How to contribute" section until tomorrow and figure out a smart way to visually improve the the top of the page, maybe with a pretty banner that fits the topic of figure skating. I am open for good suggestions here.

Henni147 (talk) 16:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, just now I added content (actually "stolen" from my other WikiProject, Women in Religion) to the "How to contribute" section. I love everything you've done, especially those barnstars. I agree that we're not yet ready for the Platinum one. This has been a busier-than-normal week IRL, so I'm taking your suggestion and taking my time to write the "About figure skating section," but my goal is by the end of the weekend.

I'm wondering if we should rearrange the sections. How about this:

1. Announcements
2. About figure skating
3. Important policy changes
4. Project updates
5. Current reviews
6. Tasks
7. Latest promoted works
8. Barnstars
9. How to contribute

Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your additions! Some quick comments:

• The top priority must be: Stay BRIEF. Do not overwhelm visitors of the page with information:
  • Reduce the number of sections to a required minimum.
  • Keep the "About figure skating" section brief with 2-3 short paragraphs at max (ca. 200–300 words), focussing on what is essential to know from an editor's or reviewer's POV. We must keep in mind that this is a project page, not a portal.
  • Reduce the tasks section to priority tasks only and link the full tasks page above.
  • Shorten the "how to contribute" section to 2-3 paragraphs at max and work with links.
• Second priority must be: Sort the sections by their IMPORTANCE for the project:
  • Keep the announcements, especially the policy changes, at the top of the page because that is what every editor needs to follow, so it must have a prominent place on the page. If we place them somewhere in the middle, they may remain unnoticed by many.
  • It is also very important to know which reviews are currently open, so that we can reach as many potential reviewers as possible. The higher this section is placed, the better.
  • Of course, the promoted works deserve recognition, but it is more important to know how to GET there. So in my opinion, it is better to have the "How to contribute" section being placed higher, but I am open for other opinions.

I will adjust the "How to contribute section now, limiting it to the most essential information. Then we can have another look at the global structure. Henni147 (talk) 07:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, You're right about trying our best to keep things brief. With your cuts to "How to contribute," it's brief content-wise, with lots of white space, which design-wise, is a good thing. I think that "How to contribute" should be at the end, since it's not directly related to the project and it's in the TOC panel. I'm wondering if the promoted works sections should be placed higher because I've always thought that a promoted works section is a way to promote a project and to brag about our accomplishments. It also motivates editors, both experienced editors and those new to writing about figure skating on Wikipedia. At the end of the day, what's important is that everything one needs to know about editing figure skating articles is easily accessible, so I'm open to however we structure our main page. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: How about placing the list of promoted works after the current reviews? That could be a nice transition: "Latest policy" - "FS articles on the way to promotion" - "FS articles already promoted" - "Infos about figure skating in general" - "How to contribute" - "How to motivate with barnstars". Henni147 (talk) 19:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Yah, I like that order. I'll let you go ahead and implement it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Competition Articles

Copy/Pasted from the MOS talk page as this conversation is more appropriate here.

The following competition articles should be formatted properly:

2024 World Championships

2024 European Championships

2024 Four Continents Championships

2024 World Junior Championships

2024 U.S. Championships

2024 Canadian Championships Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Do you think, it would help to have templates for all standard tables in competition articles? It would ensure a uniform format that satisfies all Wiki MOS guidelines, and it would make the editing much faster and easier, too.

If needed, I can create all required templates this week. There are so many competitions every season; I think, this is worth a go. Henni147 (talk) 06:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Templates can be daunting for new users. If we have properly-formatted tables on these most recent events, we can simply copy/paste the format forward onto subsequent events. I believe all of the tables on these articles are correct. Bgsu98 (Talk) 06:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Most of the tables violate Wikipedia's MOS regarding table caption, accessibility, bold font usage, and the explanatory legend (which must be placed ABOVE the tables, not below them). Also, many column headers use outdated or incorrect terminology. The tables pretty much all need to get re-formatted if we want these articles to get promoted to FA/A class. Henni147 (talk) 09:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Note: I just checked the article for the 2024 World Figure Skating Championships, and I noticed the following issues:

• Assessment: No competition article should have an assessment status higher than start class (but rather stub class) that only consists of a lead and statistics tables. The minimum requirement for C-class must be the existence of a prose summary for all competition segments. See the featured 2018 World Snooker Championship article for comparison.
• Excessive amount of tables: The current 2024 World Championships article has nine different types of tables. In relation to the expected prose length of the article, this is too much. The minimum TES, nations' entries per discipline, medalists, and scoring results should be more than sufficient.
• Schedule: I checked multiple different sports, including, the World Aquatics Championships, tennis Grand Slam tournaments, and snooker tournaments. None of them lists the exact start/end time for each event on the main page of the competition. We can keep the schedule table to list the events for each day, but if we have proper prose sections for each competition segment, it may not be needed at all. Snooker does not have schedule tables either.
• Entries: Is this table really needed? It is extremely huge and bulky, and the participants are already listed in the results tables. This is duplicate information and no other sport I checked lists all scheduled athletes in a seperate table. Changes to preliminary entries should generally be mentioned in the prose or added as bulleted lists, not as tables.
• Medals by country: are these tables really needed? There are not that many medalists at FS competitions. One look at the medalists tables already tells you which countries won the most medals. This is also kind of duplicate information, unnecessary blowing up the stats section of the article. It is fine to add cumulative medal counts by country for the World Championships in general, but I don't see much value in it for single editions (especially not for small medals).
• Sortable tables: The {{FS skater}} template may not be suitable for sortable tables because it is not really compatible with any sorting key. Those tables may need to get separate columns for each partner and use the template {{sortname}} to properly work, but I have to take another look.

The focus should really be more on the quality of the prose, which is missing in almost every FS competition article I checked. Henni147 (talk) 10:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible to build the sort feature into the {{FS skater}} template? I have added the sort feature to the men's and women's tables at 2024 World Championships.

As to your other feedback: I have made sure that all tables have captions. I have removed the tables for small medals by country as I agree they are unnecessary and pedantic. There is an argument about not needing an Entries tables once the competition is complete, but it is useful before the competition begins or is in progress. Ditto for the time schedule, which is included in Olympics articles. Bgsu98 (Talk) 12:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Thanks for moving the discussion here! Here are some quick comments:

• RE sorting: the problem with the {{FS skater}} template is that both partners are placed in the same table cell, which messes up the sorting. For proper sorting, each partner needs their own table cell in a different column, with the skaters being sorted by their family name. An alternative is to suppress the sorting by skater in those tables, but that is not really ideal.
• RE entries/schedule: I agree that for events with no official results, the entry list makes sense. However, for concluded events, I suggest to remove it. Would you agree with that solution?

Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 15:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion

There are a number of articles listed for possible deletion here. Anyone is welcome to offer their opinions. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

A-class assessment: number of experts

@Figureskatingfan: This first A-class review made me realize that our current "expert" policy for A-class reviews might be too narrow. It is already difficult to find skating experts for reviews at all, not to mention experts who have contributed to FA/GA/A-class articles already. My suggestions are the following:

• At least two reviewers should be experts in figure skating.
  • One of them should be knowledgeable about the article's topic in specific to judge its comprehensiveness and accuracy in content.
  • One of them should be familiar with the Figure Skating style and terminlogy guide.
  • One of them should have either significantly contributed to or reviewed a featured class, good class or A-class article since 2020.
    I am not sure if authors who were only involved in featured lists, can properly judge the quality criteria for a prose article. Despite the promotion of Hanyu's career achievements list to FL class in 2021, I was quite overwhelmed with the brush-up of the Olympic seasons article. We needed another full year to get the prose part ready for FA class in 2022.
• At least one reviewer should be unfamiliar with figure skating to check the article's accessibility to casual readers.
• All reviewers must be uninvolved with the article they review (no significant contributions) to ensure a neutral evaluation of all A-class criteria.

What do you think about this adjustment?

PS Important note regarding assessment classes: WikiProject Figure Skating (and Wikipedia in general) only has two assessment classes for list articles, namely list class and featured list class. The WikiProject Military History has created more assessment classes for lists, but we don't have them, and I don't think that it's needed for figure skating. Henni147 (talk) 09:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, my responses: I wonder if the reason we're having trouble recruiting reviewers for the Kim bio is because so many of us active editors in this project have all worked on it. We may have the same issue with other articles and lists, including Hanyu's.

I've been thinking about this, too. I'm worried that there might not be enough active editors of figure skating articles to make this successful, but I think it's something we should at least try, which is why I pushed for it in the first place. Wikipedia:Content assessment/A-Class criteria (last two sections) states that for informal assessments, a proposal to pass an article to A-class needs to be placed on its talk page and that it needs to "be supported by two uninvolved editors, with no significant opposes". For formal assessments, there's no number of reviewers required. I went with a combination of formal and informal, leaning toward formal because I think that the complexity of figure skating calls for it. I went with three reviewers because that's what Military History does. I think that we can, though, state that we can have two reviewers if we there's consensus for it. Remember that nominations for assessments, depending on the kind of assessment, can languish for long periods of time. Perhaps we just need to be patient and continue to actively recruit reviewers. We can add both to the instructions: that there can be two reviewers if there's consensus and that it's okay to actively recruit reviewers.

I agree with using non-involved reviewers. Again, that would require recruitment. Perhaps we can do a quid pro quo by approaching an editor with a nomination in other reviews and offer to review their article if they review one of our A-class nominations. For example, "Hey, I'll review your GAN if you review my A-class." I also agree with not using more assessment classes for lists. Military History has a wide range of classes of their articles, most likely because their topic is so huge and complicated, and because it's such a huge project. The only reason our topic isn't as huge is the short history of the sport in comparison to military history and because we're a much smaller project. I think we can have A-class lists, too. Like I said above, I'm worried that this might be above our capabilities, but it would solve so many problems for us, so I'm willing to spearhead the effort. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your detailed response! I agree with pretty much everything being said. My personal experience with lists is that the hardest part to achieve is (1) proving the notability of the tables with reliable sources and (2) the correct formatting of the tables. When that has been successfully done, the promotion to FL-class is a formality. I started working on Hanyu's career achievements in April, and we got the pass for FLC in June already. So I don't really see the neccessity for A-class lists in figure skating. It would just double the waiting time to reach featured status. Henni147 (talk) 05:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, good ideas. Perhaps we should suggest that editors use the FLC process to promote figure skating lists. I can add that, probably tomorrow. I also think that the more FLs under our belt, the easier it would be to support notability and reliable sources. Eventually, the reviewers at FAC will trust our process and procedures. Again, nice work. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

World Figure Skating Championships cumulative medal count is currently up for review as a Featured List. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Bgsu98: Yep. Just seen it yesterday, thanks for the nomination! Since I contributed a lot to that list myself, I cannot join the review, but I keep my eyes on it. If you need any help, just let me know.

PS: Thank you very much for your efforts to brush up the List of Olympic medalists in figure skating. It would be really sad if the FL status got lost because other than the outdated formatting, it is a great list. Henni147 (talk) 05:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Detailed routines

This may be bordering on WP:NOTFORUM, but I'll give it a try. I just finished watching the 2022 Olympics, spoiler-free, but could only find the full-broadcast YouTube editions without commentary. Unfortunately these don't include the graphics which display the abbreviated elements like "Lz", "Lo", etc. immediately after they are performed.

Not being an expert myself, I was left completely in the dark as to what jumps were being performed (except for the obvious Axel). Therefore after I finished watching the event, I was hoping to find detailed breakdowns of these elements on, say, Trusova's or Hanyu's articles, but found none; only the music they used.

Again, this is a bit WP:NOTFORUM, but as it pertains to a lack of information on a WP article, I don't think it's egregious to ask for a location where such info could be found, or if they could start being added to articles. Are there sources on the skaters' articles for this? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

If you follow the links to the sources available for each event, they should eventually lead you to the individual scoresheets for each skater. There are several competitions were sources have not been provided, which is inappropriate, and I try to remedy those when I encounter them. Please feel free to let us know which events are lacking the appropriate sources. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

There are a great many sources on Figure skating at the 2022 Winter Olympics – Women's singles. Could you point me in the right direction for these scoresheets? I'll then hopefully be able do so for other events if I know what I'm looking for. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I recommend going through SkatingScores.com. You can see the results for the 2022 Olympics here. You can click on the scores to see a breakdown and it should give you the information you're looking for. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

That's perfect. Much appreciated! Would there be any scope to including such information in articles one day, perhaps using tables, or would that fall under WP:CRUFT? I'm just thinking, I might not be the only casual viewer who's had to watch without commentary (or audio), and following up on those performance details ultimately required quite a few clicks away from WP. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I am trying to provide links to SkatingScores on articles as both references and external links. SkatingScores provides links to our articles, so I feel like it's only fitting. I can't imagine including that amount of detail here. Bgsu98 (Talk) 18:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)