Talk:Zionism/Archive 22

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Restoration of WP:SYNTH

This edit restored a bunch of tangential digression into the history of the Jewish people. In the context of the page here, all so much material is WP:SYNTH unless expressly contained within sources on Zionism or alongside a discourse on Zionism and its historical origins. None of this material appears on the History of Zionism child article either, and for obvious reasons, which is that it is a basic violation of WP:OR, which is policy. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:13, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose removal of sourced content.  // Timothy :: talk  23:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  @TimothyBlue why? إيان (talk) 01:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  You're going to need a better reason than that to explain why there should be some sort of exception to WP:SYNTH here. WP:OR is policy remember? Iskandar323 (talk) 02:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support removing WP:SYNTH to keep article focused and on topic, per @Iskandar323's reasoning.

إيان (talk) 01:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The modern Zionist movement was at least partially inspired in the original return to Zion from the Babylonian exile. Obviously related to background. Dovidroth (talk) 05:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  If you want to keep it, source it with refs that aren't WP:SYNTH. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The history of the Jewish people in ancient times is a critical background for understanding the history of modern Zionism, which called for the return of the Jews to their ancestral land. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:01, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

  See above note that the sourcing needs to not be WP:SYNTH. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd do the History section with these subsections, each subsection like 3 paragraphs or so:

• Biblical background - Jews, the Bible, that basic stuff
• Pre-Ottoman Empire - (historical) ancient Jewish kingdoms, Romans, etc.
• Ottoman history to 19th c. (currently "Pre-Zionist initiatives")
• Tanzimat to First Aliyah (currently the beginning of "Establishment of the Zionist movement")
• Second Aliyah to Balfour Declaration (currently the rest of "Establishment of the Zionist movement")
• Balfour to WWII
• WWII to Israel
• Israel to present

Levivich (talk) 06:50, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment: The "voting" here is all very well and good, but this isn't an RFC, or really a vote of any kind. No one will close it. It's just a talk page thread, about WP:SYNTH. I suppose you can all keep edit reverting the WP:SYNTH back in, and I'm probably not going to escalate it elsewhere, but until this section is actually properly sourced and abides by Wikipedia's core policy of WP:OR, the tag that I have now added will remain unaddressed. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Complete Removal of content that did have existing sources, (perhaps not enough sources) seemed a bit exaggerated. Furthermore, clear there is importance in historical context of a national movement. Thus per se that Zionism for Jews, is considered the return to an ancient homeland and the reestablishment of sovereignty. It is worthwhile historical context to include history of Jewish sovereignty in the region. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, not a vote and not what WP:SYNTH refers to. This isn't about whether feel it is related to the subject; it is about whether there are sources supporting it - if not, it's adrift from policy. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Your edits show your POV, Zionist. You really didn't need to say anything. 142.126.191.102 (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2023

Delete footnote #11. The reason is that the footnote is blank. There is no source for the quotation. Can the last sentence of the first paragraph stay in if it doesn't have a source? If so, keep the text of the last sentence but remove the quotation marks. If not, the whole sentence should be deleted. Dustmouse3 (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

•  Not done. Reference is present, there is a formatting issue, but refrence is present and supports quote.  // Timothy :: talk  18:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Broken text in para 3 of section "Characterization as colonialist and racist"

There's something wrong with this text, at the start of the 3rd para:

Edward Said and Michael Prior claim that the notion of expelling the Palestinians was an early component of Zionism, citing Herzl's diary from 1895 which states "we shall endeavour to expel the poor population across the border unnoticed—the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." He describes it as "a feature of Palestinian propaganda", writing that Herzl was referring to the voluntary resettlement of ...

Who is "He" (at the start of the second sentence)? Misha Wolf (talk) 15:44, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Presumably Edward Said or Michael Prior, or possible both? 74.130.130.3 (talk) 20:06, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Palestinians should get a brief mention in the intro

I strongly recommend at least a passing mention in the introduction section of the existing Palestinian Arab majority in Ottoman/British Palestine at the time of the Zionist-sponsored migrations. Something like this:

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a large number of Jews immigrated to first Ottoman and later Mandatory Palestine, at that time home to a Palestinian Arab majority; at the same time, diplomatic attempts were made to gain worldwide recognition and support. Evaporation123 (talk) 03:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Being a political majority or minority only matters in democratic forms of government. The second feature of democratic government is that political minorities have the same political rights as the majority. This is the point on which scholars engage critically with Zionism. Would something like this address:

"Zionism is a secular nationalist ideology committed to a Jewish-majority national home-state, and has been criticized by some scholars for negating the political rights of non-Jewish ethnoreligious groups." Ben Azura (talk) 05:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Maybe something like that belongs at the end of the intro (and now that I'm looking at it, the mention of Jews as "indigenous" seems extremely controversial and should probably be revised). But anyways, what I'd like to see is just a mention of the demographic reality at the time the Zionist movement was going on. Not necessarily as a pointed critique of Zionism, just so the lead doesn't imply the incorrect idea that the land was empty as Jewish migration was occurring.

Here's my revised proposal for the addition:

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a large number of Jews immigrated to first Ottoman and later Mandatory Palestine, at that time sparsely populated but home to a Palestinian Arab majority. At the same time, diplomatic attempts were made to gain worldwide recognition and support. Evaporation123 (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Christ Wikipedia isn’t supposed to be biased get lost 95.144.44.26 (talk) 18:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Relax man, my suggestion is literally to help the article be more balanced. Evaporation123 (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The Palestinian nationality was only created and started to gain momentum in the mid 20th century and most of the Arab population of modern day Palestine were actually from foreign lands. 77.137.73.225 (talk) 12:37, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Hence why I am saying "Palestinian Arabs", not referring to "Palestinian" in the ethnic/national sense that it largely refers to today. Pre-Israel there were also Palestinian Jews. Evaporation123 (talk) 21:39, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I oppose this change, because it elides the point the Jewish settlement in the area predates Zionism. Andre🚐 22:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't oppose mentioning that as well. It would be good to include something along the lines of Zionists choosing Palestine for its historical/religious importance with regards to ancient Israel, etc. Evaporation123 (talk) 03:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

That would address the objection. Andre🚐 04:01, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2023 (2)

213.233.108.0 (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

please change the opening paragraph as this entails historically incorrect statements.

original: Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine,[3][4][5][6] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.

My historically correct fix: Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Israel (formerly known as british mandate for palestine as named by the romans to spite the jews after their expulsion from israel by naming it after phillistines (macedonian-greeks), their biblical nemesis,[3][4][5][6] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.

 Not done Sorry, but this proposal has multiple problems, historical, balance and grammar. Zero^talk 03:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2023

213.233.108.0 (talk) 01:28, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Israel (formerly known as british mandate for palestine as named by the romans to spite the jews after their expulsion from israel by naming it after phillistines (macedonian-greek), their biblical nemesis,[3][4][5][6] a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 06:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The initial definition as being specific to establishment in Palestine

As stated, the initial definition as ‘Jewish homeland in Palestine’ is incorrect. Originally it was a movement to establish a Jewish homeland anywhere, this is shown later in the article when alternative locations for a homeland, such as Ethopia and Argentina, are discussed. A better definition would be one more along the lines of Harvard’s ‘The Pluralism Project.’ 2603:8001:6501:4C82:2536:1527:575C:871E (talk) 03:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Common denominator is incorrect

The body states: "The common denominator among all Zionists has been a claim to Palestine, a land traditionally known in Jewish writings as the Land of Israel ("Eretz Israel") as a national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for Jewish national self-determination."

Isn't this incorrect? After all Herzl himself pushed for a jewish state in uganda. DMH43 (talk) 18:06, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Israel

Google is lying on the concept of “zionism “ altering the real history about Israel 2600:1700:F990:F080:84A4:DE02:5035:1BED (talk) 14:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

"Self-defense"

You do realize that the whole section is unsourced, and not just the self-defense claim, right? @Arminden: Makeandtoss (talk) 19:45, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi. First, good point, self-defense is POV and after reading up, it doesn't cover Bar Giora of the early ones, and it's probably controversial for the Hagana & Palmach of the later ones.

Second, re. "unsourced": not true, it's a list with 2 subsets - the "Direct precursors of the IDF" are all linked enWiki articles with piles of sources, and "Unrelated" has sources for each item.

Third, I'm not interested in any conflict here, I've researched for myself (was interested in the early Jewish policing outfits which didn't make it into the official Israeli narrative, like Magen, Noter, Mahane Yehuda) and put the result on Wiki for the common good; as un-ideological, if you mean by that: selective Zionist narrative, as you can hope for. So not interested in picking up any fight and don't wish to invest any more time in this.

Thank you for your understanding. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 21:28, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Arminden: Not here to pick a fight either, but I found "self-defense" was a bit too much. Enjoy your day. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:20, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: great, same to you! Arminden (talk) 14:40, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Jewish Emancipation

I think it would be helpful to include Jewish Emancipation as part of Zionism to better explain the Jews' exclusion in European countries and to further the understanding of seeking their own nation. Jewish emancipation - Wikipedia 2600:100E:B062:8D23:4871:BC86:E362:F2D8 (talk) 18:23, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Needs better modern definition

Right now the lede says "Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports "the development and protection of the State of Israel"."

This seems incomplete to me, since Zionism today isn't just about the State of Israel, it is about the State of Israel as a Jewish state. DMH43 (talk) 18:03, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

This is now done DMH43 (talk) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 January 2024

Add European'Jewish Problem' as a reason for the support for Zionism. Cite: https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/en/document/final-solution-term-and-plan.html 142.115.235.13 (talk) 15:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

• Not done: unclear what is being requested.  // Timothy :: talk  15:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Colonialism and Racism

Conflation of the two into a single section is OR and this section will have to be broken into two. Will commence shortly, but encourage anyone willing to start the process. Mistamystery (talk) 23:46, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The colonialist characterization is closely linked with the racist characterization, see for example morris:

The settlers, especially in the moshavot, and the natives quickly developed “normal” colonial relations based on stereotyped images and behavior patterns; exploitation; and mutual dependence, contempt, racism, hatred, and fear.

DMH43 (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Still, not grounds to conflate two definitionally different concepts. There will be appropriate places within each section to discuss crossover. Mistamystery (talk) 01:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Synth in Historical and religious background section

There is a flag in the Historical and religious background which warns of synth. I see some. I'm suggesting:

1. delete the first 3 paragraphs in this section
2. improve sourcing for the last 2 paragraphs. I think these can be properly sourced, but I don't know for sure. In the process I think they need to be rewritten to, in a way that relates it to zionism.

DMH43 (talk) 05:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Outline specifically please what you are saying is synth (especially proposed deletions). Mistamystery (talk) 05:46, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

From the first paragraph, only the reference Garaudy is related to zionism (i dont mean its not relevant, but neither the writing or the sources relate the content to zionism) and it is only cited for one statement. From the second paragraph none of it is related to zionism. From the third, the only related statement is "These actions are seen by many scholars as an attempt to disconnect the Jewish people from their homeland".

In any case, it just seems like way too much background which is disconnected from the specific topic of the article. DMH43 (talk) 06:13, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Too much background is different from synth, and I would disagree squarely on the point that Zionism is essentially connected to (the concept at least) of Jews attempting to restore themselves to their ancestral homeland. I don’t see how anything connected to Jewish history in the region is not relevant to the overall topic. Mistamystery (talk) 06:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The sources don't connect this background to zionism, so it's synth.

"Zionism is essentially connected to (the concept at least) of Jews attempting to restore themselves to their ancestral homeland" did you mean to say: "Zionism is essentially disconnected to (the concept at least) of Jews attempting to restore themselves to their ancestral homeland"? DMH43 (talk) 06:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

This does not require a tendentious and literal parsing of sources to back up what is blatant and undisputed in the basic concept. It is not synth to insist a movement around restoration of Jewish people to the land in which Jews originated is somehow connected to the history of Jews in said homeland.

Or are you insisting that Zionism is merely a modern concept disconnected from anything to do with history? What is the definition of the topic you are operating from? Mistamystery (talk) 07:01, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that these paragraphs dont relate to Zionist ideology at all. There should be at least some discussion relating this background to the article, but there isnt. DMH43 (talk) 16:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Colonialism

The article describes zionism as a colonialist ideology only in the perspective of critics of zionism. But this is just not true, especially with regard to the early zionists who were obviously proud to be colonialists. See for example any writing from Benny Morris on the time. DMH43 (talk) 17:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Settler colonialism also relevant Selfstudier (talk) 17:26, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, it's not my personal assessment, it's the assessment of well respected historians. DMH43 (talk) 06:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

It’s a perspective, not the entirety of perspectives or historical analysis, so to characterize it as such would be complete POV. Longhornsg (talk) 14:01, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide me some sources that argue this? There are many historians on this history whose writing has been shown to be false, so just because a perspective exists doesn't mean it is notable. For example, some traditionalist israeli historians write that the arab population left palestine because of announcements from invading arab armies. This has been demonstrated repeatedly to be false. DMH43 (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

See also: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Jabotinsky IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Demote to C-class article

This article has too many issues to be considered a B-class article IMO. It's messily organized in places, has too many tags, and could do with some major copyediting. Cessaune [talk] 07:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Definition of Zionism / Recent edit

This recent edit [1] should be discussed. @Zanahary

The source added [2] doesn't seem to support the change, in fact it seems to contradict it, as it begins with the text: "The Jewish tradition of peoplehood, in combination with the age-old yearning to return to Zion (the ancient Hebrew name for the holy mountaintop in Jerusalem), have produced the modern ideological movement of Jewish nationalism: Zionism."

-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

You’re right about the source—I added it expecting a discussion to be initiated, but actually I regret not just adding a high-quality source for it. Pardon, and maybe it should be reverted pending discussion. I just think there’s something contradictory in defining it in relation to the present-day region of Israel when the article details a whole slew of proposed Jewish lands, and “Zionist” as an adjective has been applied to lots of Jewish migration movements that sought statehood or population security around the world, including in Madagascar. Zanahary (talk) 03:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2024

The paragraphs in the Arab Conflict section have been delete and reposted multiple times. The material is disputed and should not be included. The distract from the main purpose of the article. 12.74.53.144 (talk) 20:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Please delete the entire Arab Conflict section. 2601:189:8001:2470:9000:3E32:F731:BD53 (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Feel free to discuss that text here on the talk page but as there is clearly dispute over that text, out of scope for an edit request Cannolis (talk) 23:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

POV tag

@Donbodo please explain what about the section "Role in the Arab-Israeli conflict" requires a POV tag. DMH223344 (talk) 15:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

It looks like you mentioned in a previous post a concern with over reliance on a single source. DMH223344 (talk) 05:53, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Two sources are currently cited in that section, Morris and Finkelstein. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 07:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The sources are not cited directly from the sources, but are simply cited from Finkelstein. What is expressed here is only Finkelstein's POV. Don Bodo (talk) 10:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I should add that, in a recent live debate on the Lex Fridman podcast, Morris told Finkelstein that he was misconstruing his words. Don Bodo (talk) 10:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The tag has been changed from 'POV' to 'one source'. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Scope of Zionism

How can we say Zionism aims for establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, when this was clearly not the case for early Zionist thinkers? I mean sure, it has been mainly so, but it would be misleading to include that in the overarching definition. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on what you mean? In what way was seeking the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine "not the case for early Zionist thinkers"? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Per body:

“ Throughout the first decade of the Zionist movement, there were several instances where some Zionist figures, including Herzl, supported a Jewish state in places outside Palestine, such as "Uganda" (actually parts of British East Africa today in Kenya), Argentina, Cyprus, Mesopotamia, Mozambique, and the Sinai Peninsula. Theodor Herzl, the founder of political Zionism was initially content with any Jewish self-governed state ”

If the founder of Zionism himself was not sure about choosing Palestine; how can we say that Zionism aimed for establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine? It doesn't make sense, therefore, Zionism should be correctly redefined without relation to Palestine, i.e. seeking the establishment of a Jewish homeland generally. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

We would need to see high quality reliable sources for the proposed changes. It may be the case that there wasn't a single proposal among early Zionist thinkers. Many of them were from Salonica and Ukraine and there was real and serious discussion over the fate of Salonica. It was the "New York of the Ottoman Empire" or the "Jerusalem of the Balkans" — and it is quite disturbing that the memory has been all but been erased from the history.

As for disputing the significance of Palestine as central to the Zionist movement, I don't support changes along these lines. There may have been different or multiple proposals under discussion, and so, I have some doubts about how we are reading Uganda. Was it proposed as an alternative to a Jewish national home in Palestine, or simply a practical proposal for a "temporary refuge" for the Jewish refugees of the pograms, as Al Jazeera and others claim? Ben Azura (talk) 09:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This makes sense but you'll have to show that reliable sources define Zionism in this way, although I suspect RSs define it as this article does and indeed Zion refers to Palestine/Jerusalem.

Herzl was a Zionist in that he supported establishing a Judenstaat in Palestine. He also considered other places since "a major concern and driving reason for considering other territories was the Russian pogroms, in particular the Kishinev massacre, and the resulting need for quick resettlement in a safer place."

If early Zionists such as Herzl were not fully certain or committed to establishing a state in Palestine only, I don't think that means they weren't Zionists at all. The sentence "Throughout the first decade of the Zionist movement, there were several instances where some Zionist figures, including Herzl, supported a Jewish state in places outside Palestine", can be understood as "early Zionists were unsure about the feasibility of establishing a state in Palestine and considered other options for Jewish settlement."

We also have separate articles on Jewish territorialism and proposals for a Jewish state.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Ben Azura: As @IOHANNVSVERVS: has pointed out, Proposals for a Jewish state article shows that most of them were proposals for a Jewish homeland outside of Palestine, including the Uganda Scheme, which was presented by Theodor himself at the 1903 Sixth Zionist Congress. Obviously this change would require finding what RS; but as an initial observation, doesn't it seem illogical to claim that the founder of Zionism was unZionist? At first glance, wouldn't you agree that it is not so accurate to limit Zionism to Palestine? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

"Doesn't it seem illogical to claim that the founder of Zionism was unZionist?"

Imagine a sentence like "early Zionists were not strictly or fully committed to the ideology and considered alternatives."

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

But they did not consider alternative ideologies; they considered alternative strategies for the same ideology of Zionism-when Zionism is defined broadly as supporting creation of a Jewish homeland. Obviously the fact that alternatives to Palestine can be mentioned in the lede as a summary of the body; but here we are talking about the opening sentence; whether Palestine should be included in it or not. If it should, that risks "de-Zionizing" Herzl. But then again, we should find what RS say about this. My only aim to bringing this up here is to gather the momentum for this research journey. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

"But they did not consider alternative ideologies; they considered alternative strategies for the same ideology of Zionism-when Zionism is defined broadly as supporting creation of a Jewish homeland."

I would rather say that "they considered alternative strategies for the same ideology of supporting the creation of a Jewish state, but had a strong preference for Zionism."

Seemingly Herzl and some of the early Zionists may have been Judenstaatists first and Zionists second, but they were still Zionists.

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 11:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

But you have a preconceived assumption that Zionism by definition relates to Palestine and anything other than Palestine would be "Judenstaatists", which is apparently untrue. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:12, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Both broad and narrow definitions exist. The best thing is to find good sources for both and present both. Zero^talk 13:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

+1, some different varieties to boot. Selfstudier (talk) 14:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

No mention of the Palestinian Arab people in the lead section?

From the moment the first Zionist settlers entered Palestine, Zionism became inseparable from its effect on the Palestinian Arab people, especially through the pernicious fiction of "a land without a people for a people without a land". Even if one accepts the strange decision to relegate to the very last paragraph of the lead section the critique of Zionism as settler-colonial, which is as fundamental to it as it is to the idea of Manifest destiny (and check out how soon that article mentions settler-colonialism), the omission of any explicit mention in the lead of the actual people affected by the ideology is a bridge too far.

49.36.11.98 (talk) 19:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, will try to be addressed. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

RfC on inclusion of Nakba in Israel lede

There is an ongoing RfC on whether to include Nakba in the lede of Israel. You're very welcome to discuss but please refrain from polemical arguing and WP:Assume good faith. Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:07, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2024

Change:

−

Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of an indigenous people (which were subject to persecution and share a national identity through national consciousness), to the homeland of their ancestors as noted in ancient history.[23][24][25] Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[26] racist,[27] or exceptionalist ideology or through settler colonialist movement.[28][29][30][31][32] Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist.[33][34][35]

+

Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of an indigenous people (which were subject to persecution and share a national identity through shared history and national consciousness), to the homeland of their ancestors as noted in ancient history.[23][24][25] Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[26] racist,[27] or exceptionalist ideology or through settler colonialist movement.[28][29][30][31][32]

XAdamZion (talk) 23:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. HansVonStuttgart (talk) 08:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Jewish immigrants to Palestine are not indigenous to Palestine

New Section

Criticism

Jews are not genetically distinct from non-Jews.

Jews are not from a limited set of lineages originating solely in Palestine.

Jewish immigrants to Palestine are not indigenous to Palestine.

2601:444:300:B070:F9EE:7B8A:A564:1D43 (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 19:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Improper Citations

Giving a heads up for anyone who wants to issue corrections before improperly cited items items are excised.

Please feel free to restore any appropriate items with the correct and detailed citations. Mistamystery (talk) 16:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Please be specific. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I added some citations to the content you recently objected to. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Citation 183 (Morris) is still deadlinked. Mistamystery (talk) 23:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Inconsequenntial as a link is not needed anyway. If you like you can remove or replace the link. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I removed the dead link. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Sources don't require links. They don't even have to be on the internet. Zero^talk 14:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It’s not about links. There were citations that were poorly and improperly created by an editor, so will do a review. Beyond this, have a general concern about dishonest edits and mischaracterization of sources so will have a look-see.Mistamystery (talk) 15:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

APC?

@Mistamystery: Can you please clarify what APC stands for? I couldn't understand your revert summary without knowing that. UpdateNerd (talk) 07:08, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

American Palestine Committee. You said it was "pro-Israel" but it was not operating when Israel was in existence. Mistamystery (talk) 07:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh ok that makes sense. Its stance wasn't totally clear from the text, being prefaced by the vague (and unsourced) claim it was "highly effective", in addition to the name which is a bit misleading at a glance. UpdateNerd (talk) 07:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

No, it doesn't explain why Mistamystery also removed a large quotation from Ben-Gurion giving a reason or even mentioning it in the edit summary. Zero^talk 10:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Thought this was already restored with the minor correction requested. I'll just do it for him now. Scratch that. Upon review, he distorted, as well as mischaracterized the quote (which is probably why he has yet to restore it). I'll wait for him to give explanation. Mistamystery (talk) 12:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

In what way was the quote mischaracterized? Also you removed the citation needed from "the impact of Nazi propaganda aimed at the Arab world fostered the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine." Which reference supports this? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 14:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Here is the full quote from Flapan's book, with the editors "selects" in bold:

I want to destroy first of all the illusion among our comrades that the [Arab] terror is a matter of a few gangs, financed from abroad ... We are facing not terror but a war. It is a national war declared upon us by the Arabs. Terror is one of the means of war ... This is an active resistance by the Palestinians to what they regard as a usurpation of their homeland by the Jews — that's why they fight. Behind the terrorists is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self-sacrifice. From the time of Sheikh Izz al din al Qassam it was dear to me that we were facing a new phenomenon among the Arabs. This is not Nashashibi, not the Mufti, not a matter of a political career or money. Sheikh Al Qassam was a zealot ready to sacrifice his life for an ideal. Today we have not one, but hundreds perhaps thousands [like him]. Behind them is the Arab people. In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. I insist on the truth, not out of respect for scientific but political realities. The acknowledgement of this truth leads to inevitable and serious conclusions regarding our work in Palestine ... let us not build on the hope the terrorist gangs will get tired. If some get tired, others will replace them. A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily ... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us ... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all... The centre of the war is in Palestine but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs . . . and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand . . . but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases ... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini’s propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs.

In no way does this quote support the assertion that "the main source of fear for Zionists was the defensive strength of Palestinians." This is pure POV cherry pick (that also seems to have been pulled from a talking point site like this one). Mistamystery (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

You are correct that the selection and summary are not good. However, this quote (presumably in abbreviated form) does belong. Zero^talk 01:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree that the quote belongs. And Morris even quotes it in Righteous Victims as "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves—that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves.… But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." This passage immediately precedes Morris' quote in this article saying that "Ben-Gurion, of course, was right." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it all depends on what "the quote" is and how it is framed. It seems that many parties over the years have taken to extract little slices of a juicily worded, but complex speech, for their own purposes.

I'm also concerned about the English translation used in the Flapan's book, which seems generally to be the mother source for most modern citations.

Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand" doesn't make any sense..there's something amiss here.

I kind of want to see the full original speech and in Hebrew, as well as see if the speech has been alternately translated since. Mistamystery (talk) 02:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not that complex and is rather straightforward. Avi Shlaim even says of Ben-Gurion: "Because ideologically less hidebound than his colleagues, he was willing to admit that in political terms they were the aggressors while the Arabs were defending themselves." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

MM, I don't see anything strange about that sentence. Anyway, you can check if the Minutes of the Mapai Political Committee of July 6, 1938 are online at the Labor Party Archives where the original is held. Zero^talk 11:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

What a find. Thank you.

Re: meaning, what is your take on this sentence in general then? Is there a direct meaning to be taken, or is he being poetic via a series of contradictions? Politically they’re the aggressors but the other side is superior? They’re militarily defensive but have the upper hand?

”And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand . . . but in the political sphere they are superior”

Mistamystery (talk) 14:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It makes perfect sense read literally and I don't understand why you have a problem with it. Zero^talk 04:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"Morris describes the Zionist goal of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine as necessarily displacing and dispossessing the Arab population."

Exact quote from Morris please? Mistamystery (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't add that sentence but perhaps "The Zionists were intent on politically, or even physically, dispossessing and supplanting the Arabs." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It was added by @DMH223344: on 2 February. However on the same day, another editor removed Finkelstein "According to Morris, the idea of ethnically cleansing the land of Palestine was to play a large role in Zionist ideology from the inception of the movement. He explains that "transfer" was "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism" and that a land which was primarily Arab could not be transformed into a Jewish state without displacing the Arab population. Further, the stability of the Jewish state could not be ensured given the Arab population's fear of displacement. He explains that this would be the primary source of conflict between the Zionist movement and the Arab population." which supports the statement. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The removing editor has been sock blocked. Selfstudier (talk) 13:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

That reminds me that I just added a footnote to that info a few days ago reading: Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited (2003) "Transfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism – because it sought to transform a land which was ‘Arab’ into a ‘Jewish’ state and a Jewish state could not have arisen without a major displacement of Arab population; and because this aim automatically produced resistance among the Arabs which, in turn, persuaded the Yishuv’s leaders that a hostile Arab majority or large minority could not remain in place if a Jewish state was to arise or safely endure." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Forgive my delayed response, had been away and only just realized the conversation's liveliness. Just to be clear, I didn't mean to distort any of the quote's meaning, but I did frame it a certain way given that the subsection focuses on the rise of Nazism. It's probably better not to try to make the quote fit the subsection, and just paraphrase it, which I think can be done without discarding too much of my original edit attempt. Obviously, because it's Wikipedia, feel free to work on the revision. UpdateNerd (talk) 03:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

References