Talk:Qarawat Bani Hassan

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بدنا عربي يا اجانب قراوه —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.253.57.224 (talk) 05:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

bits[edit]

A little in Pringle, Secular Buildings.... Zero^talk 00:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! that is "Burj el Yakhur" ...will add.. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Amr ibn al-'As[edit]

Both [1]and [2] say that the "Omar Ibn Al ‘Ass" -episode takes place around 1425 AD...however, 'Amr ibn al-'As lived at the very beginning of the Muslim period...must be the wrong person..? Huldra (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strange because I never read of another Muslim commander from what apparently was the Mamluk era named Amr ibn al-'As. I also don't recall any battle in Palestine involving a Muslim army versus a non-Muslim army in 1425, but there were wars between the Mamluks and the Timurids during that general time period. Either the sources are mistaken in this historical regard or it's a typo. My feeling is that this an old village tale, but who knows. I think we should keep it out of the article until further verification. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, they say the village is mentioned in many old Arabic books...it is mentioned in le Strange, so that quite is possible. Too bad they don´t say which old Arabic books it is mentioned in! It might be correct, except for the date. Perhaps we should keep it in, but not link it? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 03:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that's fine for now, I forgot how old the village is. I read that up in le Strange a while back. No need to mention the year. --03:33, 24 August 2012 (UTC)Al Ameer son (talk)

It is a really fascinating village; it looks as if it has major remains from Roman, Byzantine, Crusader and Mamluk times, not bad! Also, when you look at the pictures at the Pal.rem -site, it looks as if the ~2000 year old Deir ed-Derb has suffered major damage since 1873 :( :( :( ....perhaps publishing info about it will make people value/care for it more?? Please feel free to expand the SWP-stuff also, I think I´m signing out now.. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 04:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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WP:RS?[edit]

User:Davidbena, I don't feel confident at all, that Shorer, Yaakov; Grossman, David, eds. (1980). Israel Guide - The Northern Valleys, Mount Carmel and Samaria (in Hebrew). 8. Jerusalem: Keter publishers, in affiliation with the Israel Ministry of Defence. is WP:RS.

Yaakov Shorer looks as if he is a travel-writer, and a book about places on the West Bank which is called "Israel guide", and published "in affiliation with the Israel Ministry of Defence" doesn't inspire confidence, either. Comments from others, please? Huldra (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have consistently removed sources that are essentially tourist guides on the grounds that the quality of their history is very poor. Sources like this like to tell good stories rather than facts based on solid research. I have a number of such sources and don't cite them. In this case (OR alert) it seems to me that Mishna Menachot 8:6 has a mention in passing with no clue about the location. The "identification" is no more than someone's guess. Zero^talk 02:35, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the book's identification of this place is only tentative, but I can assure you that this 11 volume edition is NOT a tourist guide. Its name is misleading. The work is actually a scholarly publication, which makes use of archaeological research, etc. The Hebrew title, like the English, is מדריך ישראל: אנציקלופדיה שימושית לידיעת הארץ‎ (Madrikh Yisrael, etc.), which translates as "Israel Guide, A useful encyclopedia for the knowledge of the country"). The entire work is truly an encyclopedia, published by Keter Publishing House. Feel free, though, to scrutinize the work. I have noticed in the various volumes invaluable information about the sites mentioned in these volumes. Perhaps we can seek a broader consensus about this important work at the Reliable Sources notification board.Davidbena (talk) 07:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, each volume has its specific editor on the subject matter being discussed. The chief-editor of the entire series is named Arieh Yitzhaki. I suppose that the only reason the publisher worked in conjunction with the Ministry of Defence was because many of these areas were inaccessible without the permission to go there by the Ministry of Defence. Or else, it was simply because of funding the project. That's my guess. As noted, they conducted field work and archaeological research in these areas, and they bring down the earlier finds by earlier explorers. It's an absolutely wonderful work, in my humble opinion.Davidbena (talk) 07:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Huldra and Zero0000, what I will do in the future, before I extract any information from this encyclopedia, is that I will paste the suggested edit in a Talk-Page and ask your personal opinion about the information supplied before inserting it into any article. Is that fine with you?Davidbena (talk) 07:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena: nothing you have said her convince me that the source is RS, and nothing implies that any field work/archaeological research was done at Qarawat Bani Hassan, hence it is all just guesswork. I have removed it. And yes, please bring it up on talk-page, or WP:RS/N, if you would like to include it in the future, Huldra (talk) 20:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Two things make me suspicious of this "identification". (1) The Misha mentions a place with a vaguely similar (in some manuscripts, not similar) name in one sentence without giving the slightest clue as to its location. It could have been anywhere in the whole country. (2) Archaeology can usually identify wine-producing centers. I can't access all archaeological sources on this place but those I could access do not identify it as a wine-producing center. Maybe I missed it. I agree that my analysis here strays into OR, but that is allowed on talk pages. If there is someone with undoubted expertise who supports this identification, an attributed mention is possible. It has to be the author of the claim, not an editor. Zero^talk 02:47, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I hear you, User:Zero0000. The information given for Qarawat Bani Hassan is contained on pages 361 to 364, and mentions only in passing the site in the Mishnah (Menahot 8:6) being identified with this place. It then proceeds to bring down other vital information, such as in the village there used to be a Samaritan community, where a certain Baba Raba built a synagogue in the 4th-century CE. By the 18th and 19th centuries, the village was also known by the name Shām a-Tawil. It then goes on to describe places that are adjacent to this village. It writes that there is situated a hill ca. 1.5 kilometers southeast of the village, a hill called al-Qurn, where on its northern slope is found an ancient cemetery. On the top of this hill are the remains of a structure measuring 5 meters x 6 meters, built of very large stones. It goes on and on with a very detailed description of the places in and around Qarawat Bani Hassan. As for the brief mention of the Mishnah and the author's identification of the site with the Mishnaic name, I agree that there is no real way of knowing if the site is indeed the same site, as it is only a tentative identification; perhaps not very important to this article. However, there are other things which can indeed enhance the quality of this article.Davidbena (talk) 03:30, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi David. The tower is described in other places as well. I have a source for Baba Raba too, but also a source that places Baba Raba at Qarawat Bani Zeid, not very far away. I'm interested in "Sham a-Tawil". If it was called that it should be mentioned in travelogues or old maps but I can't find any. Does the book give a reference? As far as old maps go, it gets even messier: it looks to me like the van der Velde maps called it "ed-Djenet" and an 1850 map by Zimmerman called it "Muscha", neither of which I can find anywhere else. Zero^talk 14:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Qawarat Bani Zeid is mentioned in the encyclopedia, volume 8. The encyclopedia is very detailed. Unfortunately, the book does not cite references, except for occasional inline citations. That is the one disadvantage of this encyclopedia. It does, however, bring down excellent photographs, many of which though are in black & white. I tried searching for the name Shām a-Ṭawil (Arabic: شام الطويل) in E.H. Palmer's SWP "Arabic and English Name Lists" for Sheet no. 14, but it has no listing for this name. I have no idea about the author's source for this name. If I can get his address, I will write him and ask about it. The editor of the entry is either David Grossman or Yaakov Shorer. Yaakov Shorer is still alive, aged 77. His Hebrew Wikipedia page can be seen here: Yaakov Shorer. I'll try to contact him and ask him about the place.Davidbena (talk) 17:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. -- I just now found Yaakov Shorer's e-mail address here. I will write him and ask him about Shām a-Ṭawil.Davidbena (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done

By Baba Raba, do you mean Baba Rabba? Huldra (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I have not studied this name and, so, I do not know.Davidbena (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We use travelogues from 19 century as source to I/P articles.What is a difference?--Shrike (talk) 18:28, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for one thing we know those who wrote those travelogues visited the villages/collected info about them "in the field". Did those who wrote the above do that?

And we know there are major remains from the last 2000 years by the village, including Byzantine, Crusader and Mamluk eras; I would assume detailed examination would be needed to determine what remains belong to what period, Huldra (talk) 20:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is a big difference between travelogues and travel guides. We use travelogues primarily for eye-witness accounts of a place at a particular time. We also use them for identifications, but I think that those should routinely be attributed. I always try to check old identifications against modern sources because they can change due to archaeology proving they are unlikely, and also due to better-fitting locations being found. Travel guides (old and new) are meant for tourists and contain stuff that tourists find entertaining, such as local legends, with little effort to separate cute stories from actual historical knowledge. Generally speaking, travel guides are very unreliable for history. Zero^talk 03:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And it is now on RS/N, Huldra (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I have just now noticed that each volume has a Bibliography list at the end of each volume.Davidbena (talk) 12:14, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]