Talk:Otto Kumm

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Military history: Biography / European / German / World War II

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Recent edit[edit]

@Peacemaker67: I'm okay with keeping the decoration itself, but is this level of detail necessary in the lead?

The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross and its higher grade Oak Leaves and Swords was awarded to recognise extreme battlefield bravery or successful military leadership.

The Knight's Cross is hyperlinked to its page, so perhaps not? The German translation could also go, it's just clutter. Compare with Walter Reder.

Separately, my revision also included an addition of "...the armed paramilitary branch of the Nazi Party's Schutzstaffel (SS)." I'd like to reinstate this part, unless there are objections. Please let me know. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:03, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I do think it is necessary. Not only is that the standard lead wording for the hundreds of articles on RK recipients, but no-one knows why the RK is notable unless you say what it was awarded for. I wouldn't head down this road if I were you. Also, the Waffen-SS was hardly a paramilitary organisation during WWII. The standard description in FA articles on SS divisions is an armed branch of the German Nazi Party that served alongside but was never formally part of the Wehrmacht during World War II. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 02:27, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment. What about the German translation? It honestly looks like clutter to a non-German reader.

While we are on the topic of the awards, perhaps you could clarify something I was wondering about. I often see (what I assume to be) commendation materials sourced to Die Wehrmachtberichte 1939–1945 - would that be a primary source, and perhaps used uncritically in this context? I.e. is there a secondary source that can verify that the events in this battle happened as described in Die Wehrmachtberichte? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:45, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that someone is mentioned in the Wehrmachtberichte is something MisterBee1966 knows more about than me. He might be able to set you straight. But it seems to me that the mention and its wording isn't OR, it is either in the thing or it isn't. I think you are taking the policy on OR where it is not meant to go. Do we need to independently source the actions mentioned in the citation of a Victoria Cross, or can we quote the citation? I think we can quote the citation. IMO, this is the same. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 03:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good point and hope to hear from MisterB on this. Perhaps add a disclaimer/explanation to what the materials from Wehrmachtberichte is supposed to represent, and use an English section name? The only elucidation offered is the translation into The Wehrmacht Reports 1939–1945 in the references, which is still rather cryptic. Perhaps augment "Wehrmachtbericht reference" to explain what it's supposed to be - i.e. contemporaneous commendation submission? citation recorded when the award was granted? something that went into a personnel record? Wikipedia is written for a lay English-speaking person, not a military historian, and people should not have to guess. I hope this makes sense! K.e.coffman (talk) 03:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PS - I don't think that what's in this article is the standard treatment. Here's another example of a condensed version, with no German translation of the award: Walter Harzer - He was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, which was awarded to recognize extreme battlefield bravery or successful military leadership by Nazi Germany. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:49, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would have a look at articles such as Helmut Lent (featured), or Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer (A-Class), just to name a few, on guidance as what meets the Wikipedia quality criteria, in these instances the reviewers at all levels accepted the wording. There are other examples, such as Johann Mickl and Arthur Phelps, were the editor chose not to present the German translation. In essence, both variants are acceptable. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:55, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestions, and thank you for providing this option. K.e.coffman (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]