Talk:List of countries and dependencies by population/Archive 11

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Archive 11

Bias in wiki page.

The page clearly makes out that Israel’s sovereignty is not recognised by some countries but makes no mention of the State of Palestine’s limited recognition, this needs to be changed. Salandarianflag (talk) 14:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Recent edits, specific cases aside, are essentially devoted to the proposition that "status" (other than the specific criteria mentioned in the lead) is of no consequence in a population article. Although it is possible that a change in status might affect population, I am in sympathy with this viewpoint. Do we really need that column? Selfstudier (talk) 13:49, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Chinese population only quoted as a thousandth of actual figure

Chinese population shown as only a thousandth of its actual size (barely 1.4 million instead of 1.4 billion!). The actual 2020 Census total was 1,411,778,724. Please correct entry. Rif Winfield (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:40, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Population

India's most populated state i.e.Uttar Pradesh would be the 5th most populated country in the world, if it would be a country instead of a state. 27.63.147.243 (talk) 07:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Choropleth map without normalized values

The map on top uses population instead of population density. The variable should be normalised. As the page on choropleth maps states: map an extensive variable in a choropleth map is almost universally discouraged. "Normalization is the technique of deriving a spatially intensive variable from one or more spatially extensive variables, so that it can be appropriately used in a choropleth map." --JohnHill4 (talk) 14:16, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

France and UK details moved to footnotes

Some details in the notes for France and the UK were moved to footnotes to reduce the exaggerated height of those sections of the table when displayed on devices with handheld displays. Blainster (talk) 16:33, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Heard Island and McDonald Islands

The map inaccurately displays the territory of Heard Island and McDonald Islands as having a population of several million. This is incorrect, as the territory is uninhabited. Please correct. 82.13.140.148 (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

India National population clock does not exist

The Indian national population clock data shown does not exist. Please update it to the National annual estimate or the Worldometers population clock. RayAdvait (talk) 11:22, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

United States population overdated

The number does not match the source cited 96.238.158.129 (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

India's population is outdated

India's population figure is outdated, as per 2021 it had already reached 1.4 billion according to Worldometers 84.78.249.37 (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

You are right. RayAdvait (talk) 12:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

can you update it 37.14.196.93 (talk) 22:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Map is outdated

On the map, Ethiopia is shown in a lighter tone than the Philippines, yet it should be the same colour as them. IcerPad the BFDI fan (talk) 17:30, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Rfc regarding User:RayAdvait's recent edits

It appears there's a problem with User:RayAdvait. This editor has started to edit Wikipedia since March 27, and has made many edits in this article as well as in various "demographics" articles (such as Demographics of the United Kingdom, Demographics of the United States, etc) which appear unsubstantiated and/or unsourced. For example changing the population of the UK in this article, and replacing it with a "June 2021" figure coming from God knows where (the ONS has not published mid-2021 population figures yet, they will do it only in September 2022), while not even bothering to change the source which still links to the mid-2020 population that this editor has now removed from the article and replaced with his "2021" figure: [1]. Same at the Demographics of the United States article, lots of new figures without new sources (the editor left the sources unchanged, they still refer to the figures deleted by this user). I haven't checked all the changes yet, but it doesn't look good. ព្រះមហាក្សត្ររាជ (talk) 02:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Of course the article should not include figures that aren't supported by the cited sources. I don't think this needs an RfC. @RayAdvait: When changing the population figures, please cite a reliable source that supports the new figures. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 18:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok Mx.Granger I am changing them RayAdvait (talk) 12:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. @ព្រះមហាក្សត្ររាជ: Does this resolve the issue or are some of the figures still inconsistent with the cited sources? If the issue is resolved, we should remove the rfc template. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:56, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger:: there are still various problems. The population indicated for the United States doesn't correspond to the one found in the source. The population for France (added by RayAdvait) is outdated, whereas the source indicates a much more recent figure, etc. ព្រះមហាក្សត្ររាជ (talk) 17:33, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've fixed the figure for France. I'm not sure how the US figure is generated, so others will have to fix that. But the requirement to follow sources is a straightforward policy requirement and not under dispute, so I don't think this needs an RfC. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 01:06, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The US figure has a template that says do not remove this template unless justification is provided in the edit summary. RayAdvait (talk) 13:51, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• This isn't an RfC but rather a content/behavioural issue. I support reverting the edits unless we can substantiate them. SportingFlyer T·C 15:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  I've removed the RfC template, as this is not the type of dispute for which an RfC is appropriate. If anyone notices figures in the article that do not match the cited sources, please correct them. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 05:37, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

  India figure's source does not show any National population clock like the article says. When I try to remove it I can't because of the template that says do not remove this template unless justification is provided in the edit summary. RayAdvait (talk) 02:50, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  The problem is most edits by RayAdvait would have to be reverted, and I didn't want to engage in an edit war, that's why I placed a RfC. See his/her series of edits here for example: [2]. Just one example in this series: the figure for Mexico was the one from the 2020 census (with source). RayAdvait replaced the figure with another one, which he/she claims is "1 December 2021 National quaterly estimate", but he/she left the source unchanged, a source that gives only the 2020 census figure. I haven't checked each and every country he/she edited, but it's probably the same problem for most countries. What does @SportingFlyer: think? ព្រះមហាក្សត្ររាជ (talk) 13:06, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

  Is there a clean version we can revert to? SportingFlyer T·C 13:17, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

  Not sure about that as there were intervening edits in the meantime... ព្រះមហាក្សត្ររាជ (talk) 11:18, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

  @ព្រះមហាក្សត្ររាជ: What would you suggest we do, then? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 23:58, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

India population is overdated

India's population in this clock is 1.410 billion and in the Worldometers clock it is 1.406 billion. Plz update this or otherwise change the source. And also if you do not want to use a population clock, you can use the national annual estimate who's reference is linked below.

https://uidai.gov.in/images/StateWiseAge_AadhaarSat_Rep_31122021_Projected-2021-Final.pdf RayAdvait (talk) 10:51, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch § RfC: Relative time references - 'today' or not 'today'?

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch § RfC: Relative time references - 'today' or not 'today'?. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:40, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Today

It is absolutely ridiculous to use terms such as 'today' in an encyclopedia - Wikipedia itself is already 20 years old. This demonstrates an excruciating lack of common sense. Is nobody watching important articles like these? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:05, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

My understanding is indeed that no-one is really watching most of these country list pages. That said, changed to 2019. CMD (talk) 09:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Why not just change "today" in the lead to "as of {{date}}"? The displayed date will automatically match the population calculation, even if the page is stale or printed out or archived or copied. The date and figure would also match what is displayed at the top of the table in the section called "Sovereign states and dependencies by population". – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Plz update United States population data

Please update US Population data to the national annual estimate which says the population is 331,893,745 RayAdvait (talk) 05:20, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Merge List of African countries by population

I propose that List of African countries by population be merged into this article. That article is terribly sourced, has always been a maintenance nightmare, and the same data is available here when sorting by continent. Greenman (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

If United Nations or World Bank data are used, please include the revision number in the source so that the data can be verified by readers and editors

I downloaded the latest United Nations data from the download page. The file says: "Revision 1". There was apparently an update on July 14. This data differs from the previous data. (By the way, even the UN can make a typo).

Since this data is used a lot in other articles, it would be great to have a perfectly filled reference somewhere in an article that editors could just copy. This article would perhaps be the best place, since it is always linked in the infoboxes of the articles on countries. I am not familiar with the English Wikipedia data fields. Maybe an experienced Wikipedian could create a perfect reference here after each update, so that editors know where to look ?!

The web page given in the reference also does not link to the actual data, but only to the descriptions of the data. A revision number can unfortunately not be found on the download page of the UN, but those who have created the list should know which revision number of data source they have used. At least the date of the last update is given on this web page.

I have created charts based on the most recent data. Copying the descriptions and uploading the images takes a lot of time. I am German, but I don't get to add the images to the German Wikipedia on my own. I took care of internationality when creating the diagrams and tried to quote in the descriptions as good as possible. For example, I inserted several links to data description and download page - I quoted the data like this (see description):

If anyone would add the charts to the English Wikipedia, I would appreciate it. All diagrams I have uploaded so far can be found here.

I have inserted the data source and revision number directly from the file into the images. (Example) It may not be necessary to fill in an additional reference after adding the diagrams to articles, because everything is already preserved in the image and in the image description. Eneliting (talk) 14:02, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Continent: America, South America & North America

Countries in the Americas are labeled as South, North or just America. America mostly seems to be Central America/Caribbean but not consistently, i.e. Uruguay and Ecuador for example are labelled as such. I would suggest to just split them across North and South America DOsinga (talk) 11:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

@DOsinga: Until a few weeks ago, all those countries were labelled just 'America'. The IP editor who changed it, could not be bothered to do it for more than the ten most populated countries. That is, as you suggest, highly unsatisfactory. I will reinstate the plain 'America' label, as was the long-standing consensus. Feel free to suggest a split, but I would suggest that you do it through a Request for comments in order to reach a clear consensus. --T*U (talk) 17:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Inconsistency with ranks

Vatican City infobox indicates the country is 240th most populated country, with a link to this list which ranks it 195th. Same problem seemingly with a lot of the small countries : Kiribati, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis...

Elfast (talk) 09:49, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@Elfast: Late answer, but just happened to see this now. This list is only giving numbered rank to sovereign states (UN members and observers), while the numbering in the infobox is counting sovereign states, dependencies etc. Hence the difference. --T*U (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Continental placement

Why was it necessary to add continents to this list? What does that contribute, other than creating controversy on where countries should be placed? Cyprus, Georgia etc are generally regarded as part of Europe. Why does an article about population even need to delve into geography? It should list these countries as most readers would understand. I would never look for Cyprus in Asia, so this whole thing is a farce. Also, it adds no value. 2600:1700:20:1D80:94CD:7ABA:CC88:9050 (talk) 22:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Meanwhile, Russia, the pariah of the continent, is included firmly in Europe because someone apparently counted how many people live in Siberia versus Moscow. It is indeed farcical and not by any means neutral.--2600:1700:20:1D80:94CD:7ABA:CC88:9050 (talk) 22:12, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually I completely agree that the addition of continents to this list was a bad idea, especially because I knew it would end up in edit wars like the one you now are fighting. However, there was at the time a consensus to include he column, which I had to accept even if I did disagree. That said, you are wrong about Cyprus, Georgia etc generally being regarded as part of Europe. The geographical border between Asia and Europe is generally considered to follow the watershed of the Caucasus mountains, giving Azerbaijan and Georgia small parts in Europe and the main part in Asia. For similar reason the same is valid for Kazakhstan. Armenia is in this context completely within Asia, as is Cyprus. See article List of transcontinental countries for (sourced) details. Turkey and Russia are, of course, also transcontinental. If we include geopolitical and/or cultural factors, Cyprus and Georgia are more often regarded as European, as is also Armenia (without having any part geographically in Europe). However, trying to weigh these factors against eachother to include some countries in Europa and others in Asia, takes us easily well into the realm of original research.

You are referring to United Nations Regional Groups in order to "prove" that Georgia belongs in Europa. That grouping cannot be used to prove anything, since it is a grouping that the UN has made for its own convenience only. The UN also have the United Nations geoscheme for statistical convenience, and the two groupings are complete different. Of the countries we are interested in, the UNRG places Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in 'Eastern Europe' together with Russia, Turkey is placed in 'Western Europe and Others'(!) and Kazakhstan and Cyprus are in the 'Asia and Pacific' group. In the Geoscheme, however, Russia is placed in (Eastern) Europe, while all the others are placed in Asia (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus and Turkey in Western Asia and Kazakhstan in Central Asia).

You also refer to the CIA Factbook in order to place Cyprus in Europe. Well, if we should choose to follow the Factbook, we would have to place Turkey together with Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia in the Middle East. Russia and Kazakhstan would go to Central Asia. (How they can place Turkey in the Middle East and at the same time Cyprus in Europe is not very obvious.)

If you want to use UN Regional Groups as an argument for placing Georgia in Europe, then you will have to place Cyprus in Asia. On the other hand, if you want to use CIA as an argument for placing Cyprus in Europe, then you will have to place Georgia in Asia. You cannot have it both ways.

Finally to the matter of procedure. Wikipedia is based on WP:CONSENSUS between editors. If there is a disagreement, it is necessary to try to reach a consensus. I would like you to read WP:BRD about the Bold, Revert, Discuss cyclus. You made a so-called Bold edit when you changed the continent placement of Georgia from what had been the stable version for a long time. That is within your right to do. I disagreed with your change and Reverted your bold edit. That is within my right to do. But the next step is then crucial. You should start a Discussion in the talk page without making the same contested edit again until there is a consensus for its inclusion. Trying to force your preferred version into the article is called WP:EDITWAR, and that is not a road you would want to walk. I do not do edit wars, so I will not revert you again, but others may. I would suggest that you self revert and instead propose your changes here in the talk page. If you get a consensus for your proposal, then it can be included --T*U (talk) 00:06, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The continents should be removed. No relation to the article topic at all. CMD (talk) 00:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed the 'Continent' column. --T*U (talk) 10:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Link messed up

Very bad at adding links!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64mario (talk • contribs) 23:14, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I messed up link

www.census.gov/popclock this the website I was trying to add btw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64mario (talk • contribs) 23:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Missing country

Don't see Australia on this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CDA1:EFC0:FC69:65E4:8B0B:C448 (talk) 07:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

It's there, position 53. -- Dhyana b (talk) 08:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Not moved. There is no support for the proposed move, editors consider the terms sovereign state and country as distinct. Selfstudier (talk) 10:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

---

• List of countries and dependencies by population → List of sovereign states and dependencies by population
• List of countries by population (United Nations) → List of sovereign states by population (United Nations)
• List of countries and dependencies by population density → List of sovereign states and dependencies by population density
• List of countries by population growth rate → List of sovereign states by population growth rate
• List of countries by HIV/AIDS adult prevalence rate → List of sovereign states by HIV/AIDS adult prevalence rate
• List of countries by life expectancy → List of sovereign states by life expectancy
• List of countries by GDP (nominal) → List of sovereign states by GDP (nominal) per capita
• List of countries by GDP (PPP) → List of sovereign states by GDP (PPP) per capita
• List of countries by GNI (PPP) per capita → List of sovereign states by GNI (nominal) per capita
• List of countries and dependencies by area → List of sovereign states and dependencies by area

– Per WP:PRECISE. The term "country" can be ambiguous as it can describe both sovereign states and constituent regions of a country (such as in the UK). This article deals with the former so the title should reflect that. On top of that, the article listing the countries of the world is under the name "List of sovereign states" so it'd be best to unify the terminology. PK2 (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, overall. The title should be a concise summary of what's included in the list, which will necessarily leave many aspects of the inclusion criteria unspecified in the title, to be specified in the article. This article, for example, already explains its treatment of the UK's countries: primarily based on the ISO standard ISO 3166-1. For instance, the United Kingdom is considered a single entity, while the constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands are considered separately. The title only needs to be precise enough to distinguish it from similar articles, and the description should prioritize describing the distinguishing aspects of the list. I think "country" is a better summary than "sovereign state", which front-loads a detail which is technical, is not actually more accurate in some cases (the Netherlands example), and distracts from the more important aspects of the description. There is also WP:CONSISTENT; see e.g. Category:Lists of countries. Adumbrativus (talk) 11:04, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose this is based on ISO 3166 Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions—blindlynx 15:49, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose for reasons stated above. Sovereign states is not more accurate because of the way the Netherlands and France are treated. It also might introduce some arguments on what who has sovereignty on some territories. —  Jts1882 | talk  16:14, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, unnecessary complication. "Country" is a more natural term & perfectly valid, including for a formal/academic language. Also the term "sovereign states" is not an accurate description of some of these pages. Like: List of countries by GDP (nominal); List of countries by GDP (PPP); List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita; List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita — bc they include non-sovereign territories in their listing. --Dhyana b (talk) 08:10, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, country is more concise, natural and more appropriate for the non-sovereign territories listed.

The RedBurn (ϕ) 08:52, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Concur with others who opposed. Greensidebray (talk) 12:11, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Include continents

Antarctica Africa Europe Asia Oceania North America south America 90.208.60.175 (talk) 07:31, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Some countries are transcontinental. 2001:8003:913E:5D01:818C:DD5C:BD91:1704 (talk) 04:19, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Papua New Guinea's population doubles overnight

According to a study conducted by the United Nations Population Fund, the total population of Papua New Guinea is approx. 17 million instead of 9.4 million. This will make PNG the 71st most populous country in the world.

I wonder whether Western New Guinea has a similar underestimation with their population?

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11507443/Papua-new-guineas-population-doubles-overnight.html 2001:8003:913E:5D01:818C:DD5C:BD91:1704 (talk) 04:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

India's population is wrong

India's population is more than 1.4 billion, there are plenty of sources that confirm this. Yet this article feeds from an automated projected calculation from an outdated source that has accumulated a large error. 90.167.87.33 (talk) 09:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Although I don’t know how to fix it, I agree India should be 1. GamerKlim9716 (talk) 04:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I also agree, I guess we shoulh have a vote on this RayAdvait (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

• should RayAdvait (talk) 15:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Lets have a vote on this because India's data is just projections from 2011 so it meets the criteria for UN data RayAdvait (talk) 12:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It says in the lead that figures can be based on the estimates or projections for 2022 by the Population Division of the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs if there no updated national figures.Selfstudier (talk) 16:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2023

Update population of Russia to 146 424 729, https://rosstat.gov.ru/storage/mediabank/PrPopul2023_Site_.xlsx Estimate for 1 January 2023 Vivas-US (talk) 12:52, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lemonaka (talk) 10:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Kenya

Kenya is now the 27th most populous country in the world instead of 30th place due to updated population figure for Kenya can someone change the placement of Kenya to 27th instead of 30th place 64mario (talk) 01:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Please update this page.

It's important. Thank you. 2601:181:401:49B0:91A3:EA3D:A24E:85F9 (talk) 23:26, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Method

@64mario: I have tried to reach you on your user talk page, but it seems that you have not seen my message there. So I copy my message here, pinging you and hoping you will read it:

I see that you have been doing a number of updates to the List of countries and dependencies by population, which is fine. Given the large amount of data content from so many different sources, we definitely need more fresh eyes to keep the content up to date.

I must ask you, however, to read carefully the section 'Method' in the article. There you will se that (for this article specifically) we are using the most up-to-date estimates or projections by the national census authority, where available. Only if no national data are available, we use data from the UN Department of Economic and Social Affairs. There is actually a separate article giving the UN DESA numbers: List of countries by population (United Nations). So keep up your good work with updating the article, but please refrain from using UN data as long as national data are available.

Just a small detail: When you enter the population numbers, it is not necessary to put in commas to separate the number groups. This is done automatically. If you put in 123456, it will come out as 123,456. No harm done, since both inputs will come out correctly, but it is a tiny bit simpler, and it has some advantages for the editing process. Happy editing, and regards! T*U (talk) 22:49, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

ok 64mario (talk) 22:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Thailand population is wrong

The link is right, but the official Thai population in the link is 66 215 367 as of today. 91.64.176.101 (talk) 12:31, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Narrow page width

The default page width makes the notes column act differently - many rows are now fatter. It makes the list read more like a story book.

Should all the notes be moved into the notes section? I have made this change, but revert and discuss if desired. Wizmut (talk) 19:39, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

China

As India begins to surpass the People's Republic of China by the summer, there is technically the most populous country in the world: the Republic of China, as it has a population of 23,313,550 in the territories it only controls. If we go by the constitutional claims, the population would be a combined of the following areas:

• Free area of the Republic of China: 23,313,550
• Mainland China+Tibet - 1,454,810,720
• Outer Mongolia - 3,762,838
• Badakhshan - 16,500

at a population of 1,481,903,608 in total. 174.89.100.11 (talk) 09:36, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant to the article; it explicitly uses national census or UN data.

174.89.100.11, your POV-pushing isn't welcome on talk pages either. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 16:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Article description

Please, don't remove the article description of this article description. RFG101 (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The short description currently reads "Overview of world's most populous countries", which is not what the article is. This is a list of countries and dependencies by population, which per WP:SDNONE means there does not need to be any text in the description other than "none". Wizmut (talk) 16:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Wizmut Well, what's the better description for this article? RFG101 (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

"None", as the title is self-describing. Look at any article with a short description: none of them should repeat anything already said in the title. If the title has already done the work of describing the article, then the SD should be blank. Wizmut (talk) 04:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2023

Please remove this element from the "Method" section:

Not included are other entities, such as the European Union,[a] that are not sovereign states,

and replace it with this:

Not included are other entities that are not sovereign states, such as the European Union,[a]

123.51.107.94 (talk) 06:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

 On hold waiting for peer review. -Lemonaka‎ 04:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

What needs to be reviewed? 123.51.107.94 (talk) 01:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Good suggestion, no further review needed.

Wizmut (talk) 02:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Help updating Barbados

Hi! I would like to update the 2022 population estimate for Barbados to 267,800 (per the Barbados Statistical Service's 2022 end-of-year estimate.) However, I am not familiar enough with how the data template here works. Could someone help me or point me towards a resource that would help me? Thank you - CareAhLine (talk) 03:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done and thanks CareAhLine. --T*U (talk) 12:54, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2023

Please change Egypt is population from 104,939,385 to 105,061,077 YouhannaSameh (talk) 09:45, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source for a recent figure?

The current number is from a population clock that is not maintained. The site for Egypt's official statistics (CAPMAS) has been down for quite some time. The last official estimate published was for 2021 (https://www.citypopulation.de/en/egypt/admin/), which stood at 102 million.

This might be the best number to use based on this article's method. It doesn't necessarily make sense to use a population clock that may not have been updated for years and at the same time calling it "today's estimate". Wizmut (talk) 11:15, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 17:35, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Rank(s) updated correctly?

Hi! I recently updated Jamaica's population from 2018 to 2022 estimate. See my revision here. This caused its rank to change from 138 to 136. Can someone confirm that the edits I made to adjust its rank (and, as a result, the ranks of Qatar and Albania) were done correctly? Thank you very much. CareAhLine (talk) 15:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

The calculation is correct, but official figures exist for both Jamaica and Saint Lucia. Contrast this article's method with List of countries by population (United Nations). There are two articles instead of one because of difficulty in maintaining a combined table. Wizmut (talk) 04:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

"Demographics of X" links

So far as I can tell, no discussion occurred before all of the country links were changed to "Demographics of X" instead of the main page for that country. The change was made in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population&oldid=923527301

So let's discuss it now. Should the entry on China (say) go to China or Demographics of China?

For myself I'm always sighing when I get taken to the demographics page. There's a lot of other things I'm usually looking for, all on the country's main page. Wizmut (talk) 07:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

A second thought about the template: the current one has the form {flag+link|Demographics of|CHN}. This can make editing more difficult than it should be. For an awful lot of countries, the TLA is not obvious. There is the template {flag|China}, which would be easier to find, edit, and lead to a more useful page. Wizmut (talk) 07:48, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Brazil's population

According to the new census, Brazil's population is 203,062,512.

Source: https://censo2022.ibge.gov.br/panorama/ Corehme (talk) 09:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, added. Wizmut (talk) 09:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

India projection

Why is India using a population projected from its census in 2023? That's based on statistics from 12 years ago - surely United Nations Population Fund is better? —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 21:30, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I wonder how the population of India is calculated. On India it is 1.425 billion, on Demographics of India it is 1.407 billion and on this page it is 1.392 billion. Shouldn’t we use the same figures on all pages, and so, which figure? De wafelenbak (talk) 19:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@De wafelenbak The first uses United Nations Population Fund, the second uses Our World in Data, and the third uses population projections from India's 2011 Census. I think UNPF should be used for all purposes. —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 19:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The UN figure is used on the other list of countries by population. Wizmut (talk) 09:51, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Somaliland

Every other state on the List of states with limited recognition has an entry on this article, and now that Taiwan has recognized Somaliland, I think it certainly deserves a separate entry Free to play snake jazz (talk) 23:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

A similar discussion is ongoing at the Africa list. Wizmut (talk) 09:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

% of the world: sig figs

For all but the smallest populations, there are 3 significant figures used to calculate the percentage of the world. It seems unnecessary. Learning that New Caledonia is about 0.003% of the world is about as valuable as learning that it is .00340%, and the former is easier to read and takes up less space.

I would say that this rule works best: exactly one significant figure in the decimal place. It results in the top country showing up as 17.6%, the tenth as 1.6%, and the hundredth as 0.1% - not missing out on anything big here. If there's no objections I'll make this change in about a week. Wizmut (talk) 10:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Many template adjustments

I made the edits I suggested in the above topics (a little early), and also removed a lot of junk from the templates used in each entry. And I changed how the white space was used. Hopefully the table will be much easier to read and maintain for editors. If anything is broken please let me know! Wizmut (talk) 07:27, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Very old official figures

I have found official figures for Mali, Turkmenistan, Congo and Eritrea, but have decided not to add them, because they represent estimates for a date more than 10 years in the past.

I did add a lot of official figures that are less than 10 years old, but some of them will be that old soon. I don't know how old a number would be before it should be considered untrustworthy. Wizmut (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Note, the oldest figure currently in the list is for Saint Kitts and Nevis, but it's a bit moot whether than should change because their population is estimated to have changed very little. The same is not true for the countries listed above. Wizmut (talk) 08:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

India and China

On China's page, it says it's the 2nd most populous country and on India's page, it says it's the first most populous country. However, this pages says China is 1 and India is 2. I believe either those two pages should be changed or this one. GamerKlim9716 (talk) 21:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

This has been a frequent issue the past few months.

The reason for the difference is that each article may use different methods requiring different sources. This article uses official sources only, while the other big population list uses the UN as a source.

Ideally they would be combined, but it's proven a maintenance nightmare in the past. Nobody has made the right tools to make it easy to update. Left separate, the UN article can be maintained with very little effort, while this article sees a couple dozen edits a week.

The two country articles simply use news sources, which this article rarely relies on (only for census announcements).

But one day India's Ministry for Health and Family Welfare or some other government department will update its website, and we can all move on with our lives. Wizmut (talk) 23:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Somebody fixed it 🥳 GamerKlim9716 (talk) 20:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

its me RayAdvait (talk) 08:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

but somebody is reverting it because India has official projections but they are based on data from 2011 RayAdvait (talk) 08:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

As I read the document the projections were published in 2020. Their demographers may have used other information gathered since their last census to run their numbers. It's hard to be sure exactly what they did. The date of last publication seems the most reliable way to tell if a number is more than 10 years old (a reasonable cutoff point, I'll grant). Wizmut (talk) 09:07, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Published in 2020 but based on data from 2011 census RayAdvait (talk) 12:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

In part, yes, but it may also rely on more recent data on births and deaths, which do not require a census to collect data on. Wizmut (talk) 14:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Canada population : large variance to NPC

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff check Pop. Clock link}}):
• Why it should be changed population was updated by StatCan June 28, 2023. number now differs by ~60k:
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Datamensch (talk) 23:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done almost exactly. I'm still figuring out how to get it down to the right hour. Wizmut (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

answered. Thank you Wizmut. Datamensch (talk) 02:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2023

Make India The most Populated Country!!! 2607:FEA8:9280:3430:372C:12B6:4F4:7EDA (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Please see previous discussions. This article uses official figures only. Wizmut (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

ISO 3166-1?

"It includes sovereign states, inhabited dependent territories and, in some cases, constituent countries of sovereign states, with inclusion within the list being primarily based on the ISO standard ISO 3166-1"

However, that linked list includes for example Bonaire, French Guiana and Guadeloupe, which are not listed by population in this article. So what is the reason for inclusion again? 46.132.43.99 (talk) 00:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Bonaire is part of Caribbean Netherlands and the other two are departments of France, of somewhat similar status as Hawaii.

I believe the French wikipedia does list them separately on such lists, but I don't know what their reasons are. Wizmut (talk) 00:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Taiwan

Why is the Republic of China (Taiwan) not a country? It's not a dependency as it's not administered by the PRC.

Palestine with limited recognition too is however a country? Taiwan should be added as a country for consistency's sake, otherwise it's PRC pov pushing. 178.120.1.221 (talk) 19:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

List of countries and dependencies by population#Sovereign states and dependencies by population says: "A numbered rank is assigned to the 193 member states of the United Nations, plus the two observer states to the United Nations General Assembly." PRC (mainland China) is a member. Palestine is an observer state. Taiwan is neither. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

This may not be a great reason, as Taiwan is surely excluded for political reasons. For example, any country that actually calls its embassy in Taiwan an embassy will face retaliation from China. I agree that saying Taiwan is not a country is not NPOV.

Look at the wiki page for Taiwan and see the first sentence - a simple statement of fact requires a huge list of sources. Wizmut (talk) 09:50, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

The Republic of China (Taiwan) is a partially recognized state, similar like Kosovo and the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (aka Western Sahara). Dependent territories and partially recognized states are generally included but unranked in these lists. 2001:8003:900C:5301:E4B6:AD71:4DA1:63C1 (talk) 07:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Taiwan is a country, by any sane criterion. 'Palestine' is not a country, by any sane criterion. But Wikipedia is profoundly political rather than fact-based.

Ranks for territories and partially recognized states

This perennial issue has briefly arisen again, so I figured I would head off any confusion by adding some history of the prior discussion. And I want to say that I believe @Roads4117's edits and possible mistakes to have been in good faith.

Most recently there was a discussion and consensus to have the numbering system we use now, which is based on the United Nations. This is not perfect, but it was easier to reach a consensus on this option than any other.

The idea over which sort of column to have was already happening by 2005, as this user wanted to have both (nobody liked the idea). In 2008 the issue of what to include at all broached the subject of ranking tangentially.

A mountain of pixels has been spilled to decide whether to include the EU as an unranked entity. It wasn't.

A brief discussion of whether to rank partially recognized states had 1 proponent and 2 opponents, different from the later consensus.

The year 2018 saw a learning moment about not being abusive when defending your new contentious ranking policy, as well as a more general discussion or two about what to include, and what ranks may apply for the edge cases.

So for anyone looking to change things, I'd recommend reading up before getting married. Wizmut (talk) 18:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

@Wizmut Thanks for this information. I just thought that it should either be counted as a state in its own right, or put with the country that owns it (eg Isle of Man counts towards United Kingdom's population, Curaçao counts towards the Netherlands's population & statistics etc.), but obviously if people came to an agreement beforehand which I did not know about, then please keep using the system that you are currently. Roads4117 (talk) 18:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Please don't do this. Almost all sources on the Internet list dependent territories such as the Isle of Man, Curaçao, and Greenland as separate political entities. I haven't seen any exceptions yet. 2001:8003:900C:5301:E4B6:AD71:4DA1:63C1 (talk) 07:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@2001:8003:900C:5301:E4B6:AD71:4DA1:63C1 Thank you for your feedback :) Roads4117 (talk) 16:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I was just trying to help, but according to @Wizmut, this happens all of the time. However, I did not know this, and therefore said that it was good faith and won't report me to WP:ANI Roads4117 (talk) 17:03, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

First of all, dependent territories and some partially recognized states are generally included but unranked in Wikipedia's lists of countries.

Secondly, the inclusion of partially recognized states is highly controversial. Wikipedia lists 9 partially recognized states, but most sources on the Internet only include 3 partially recognized states in their lists:

1. Republic of China (Taiwan)

2. Republic of Kosovo

3. Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (aka Western Sahara)

For most sources, the other 6 "partially recognized states" are basically "renegade provinces". 2001:8003:900C:5301:E4B6:AD71:4DA1:63C1 (talk) 07:38, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

They are not renegade according to the governments that have ruled in each of those areas for however many decades. Somaliland's districts have not been administered by Somalia for longer that it ever was. It would be hard to explain to an alien anthropologist what actions by Somalia's government make it more legitimate for that region than Somaliland's.

It is highly controversial, but it is no more controversial than excluding them. There is a reason there has been so much discussion on this issue, and it would be hard to make an argument that has not already been made. I trust you have at least clicked on all the archive links I gave to see how much text there is. Wizmut (talk) 09:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@2001:8003:900C:5301:E4B6:AD71:4DA1:63C1 Thanks for that Roads4117 (talk) 17:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

"Out of date" template

The warning template at the top of the page says the list is out of date. This is no doubt true, and the template is very useful for spurring editors to scan the list for old numbers.

However, that template is usually used for articles that could be improved in a way that ends the need for updating it for a while. But this will never be true of this list, as it requires constant maintenance.

I'm curious if a template or simply a message could be made that says something else, similar to the dynamic list template.

Something like

This article reflects continually changing information from hundreds of sources. Please help update this list by finding more recent information wherever it is applicable.

Thoughts? Wizmut (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I settled on this wording, but it might still be improved:

This article reflects continually changing information from hundreds of sources. You can help by updating items to more recent figures from official sources. Wizmut (talk) 09:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Differences

There are a lot of differences if you check this list and articles such as demographics of. Eurohunter (talk) 18:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Each article may use different sources. This article uses official sources when available. Contrast with List of countries by population (United Nations). Wizmut (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

India has overtaken China

It still has India at the top 2607:FB91:161B:8940:E8F8:7F1D:CC39:3F54 (talk) 18:54, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, India has overtaken China according to the United Nations official website at https://www.un.org/development/desa/dpad/publication/un-desa-policy-brief-no-153-india-overtakes-china-as-the-worlds-most-populous-country/ and Worldometer at https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/ WikiAwesome133 (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Recent inclusions

As of this edit[3] there have been a few entries added by user @.caiify3623..

The British Indian Ocean Territory and South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands were previously not included because their populations are not considered permanent. So far as I can tell this has not changed. According to this article inclusion criteria, they might not qualify to be listed.

Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba comprise the Caribbean Netherlands, and this is how the ISO 3166-1 treats them. Their omission seems odd. Currently the area list lists them separately. And to top it off, the Netherlands population clock is said by the citation to include them. It's less than clear whether we should list them separately, together, or not at all. Wizmut (talk) 02:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Congo

Congo has a population of 111 million people according to its article 2A02:6680:110B:EB3B:C515:A76D:9A8F:6014 (talk) 18:44, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Somaliland

Last year Taiwan became the first country to recognize Somaliland as sovereign. Prior to that was 30 years of de facto independence without any outside formal recognition. Per a 2009 consensus[4] to include any partially recognized state, Somaliland would seem to warrant inclusion.

There are two possible hiccups. First, Taiwan is not 100% recognized as a country, and so it perhaps could not alone confer the type of recognition the previous consensus was possibly going for. But then again, Taiwan's lack of recognition is determined primarily by China and their sway over global trade. This explains why the US has vowed to defend the sovereignty of Taiwan without asserting that very same sovereignty. The Taiwan article seems to have settled on using "country" rather than "state" after much discussion[5], indicating that Taiwan's opinion should carry as much weight as Ecuador or Egypt or East Timor. But maybe a single country is not enough.

The other problem is that like its twin, Somaliland doesn't do much data collection, and so a proper census has never been available. They provide a figure of 4.5 million on their website[6] but give little detail on how they came by it, or what the date of the figure is. The UN's 2019 estimate of the area claimed by Somaliland sums to 4.9 million,[7], so we know that the order of magnitude is correct. Still, the region is very unstable and many people have been and possibly will be displaced, so even a relatively recent figure may be of low quality.

Many articles that deal in some way with Somaliland end up hosting edit wars, so I am hoping to head off any possibility of that here by obtaining a consensus on this talk page. Please do comment if you have any thoughts to add. But an RfC may be inevitable, and for the good. Wizmut (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

An RfC relevant to this question is now open at the talk page of the Africa population list: [8] Wizmut (talk) 00:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

About India's official population estimate

The 2023 Indian official population figure is for March 1, not for July 1. 190.97.10.129 (talk) 11:23, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2023

The amount of the global population that The United States take up is 4.16%. 2605:59C8:6402:AD00:0:0:0:472 (talk) 23:48, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: which rounds up to 4.2% Cannolis (talk) 23:52, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2023

Update population of India 1,425,775,850, to reflect the UNDESA press release from April 23, 2023. See press release link below.

Update the population ranking list to reflect the updated population estimate.

https://www.un.org/development/desa/dpad/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/PB153.pdf Dobbertz (talk) 20:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Please see section "method". This article uses official figures from each country only. Contrast this article's method with List of countries by population (United Nations).

Almost half of the topics currently on this discussion page are identical to this one. Wizmut (talk) 22:01, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Change needed

Someone should change the figures. I think they are old. India overtook China when it comes to population.49.178.176.58 (talk) 13:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done

DSP2092 (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Clearly NOT done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.103.111.118 (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

@49.178.176.58 and DSP2092: Please see section 'Method'. UN projections are only used if and when national numbers are not available. Also: If UN numbers were to be used, it would have to be the yearly projection (per 30 June), but that would need a change in the text about method, and only after a discussion and a consensus here in the talk page. The note in the India entry will have to suffice until updated numbers can be sourced to the national census authority. --T*U (talk) 06:51, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree, India has now became the most populous country. 72.23.187.31 (talk) 02:50, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

https://www.un.org/development/desa/dpad/publication/un-desa-policy-brief-no-153-india-overtakes-china-as-the-worlds-most-populous-country/

official source confirming that India Has overtaken China 2406:7400:BB:B281:24AD:65EC:12E2:B367 (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

National population clocks

Many figures are said to be from 'today', but are in fact old numbers. Some are not even online anymore. Here is a list of all the items that currently use NPCs and an appraisal of each. Of the active ones, most differ slightly, but the Philippines formula is probably the least up to date. I don't know how to change the widgets that update these automatically, but the worst of the below shouldn't be using the broken clocks anyways.

Rank	Region	Figure	Retrieved	Status	Posted figure
3	United States	334,908,000	4-Mar-23	active	334,933,961
7	Brazil	216,289,441		not posted
12	Philippines	110,587,187	2-Feb-21	active	110,626,844
14	Egypt	104,951,521	19-Apr-15	site down
17	Iran	86,531,242	22-Nov-22	wrong link
22	Thailand	65,991,194	2-Jan-16	site down
33	Sudan	45,483,995	18-Apr-20	site down
37	Canada	40,009,379	18-Apr-20	active	40,009,839
39	Morocco	36,987,827	22-Nov-19	dead link
40	Uzbekistan	36,284,463	19-Jan-19	dead link
45	Malaysia	33,043,700	22-Nov-19	wrong link
53	Australia	26,535,700	22-Nov-19	active	26,583,082
63	Kazakhstan	19,881,276	23-Nov-21	dead link
66	Ecuador	18,315,511	22-Nov-19	active	18,312,698
67	Netherlands	17,880,140	18-Apr-20	wrong link
83	Jordan	11,417,402	5-Jan-20	active	11,417,559
91	Israel	9,737,600	18-Apr-20	dead link
120	New Zealand	5,218,194	18-Apr-20	dead link
132	Mongolia	3,502,845	13-May-10	EOY estimate	3,457,548

Wizmut (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I have replaced all of the dead clocks with current figures, and fixed links to clocks that are still alive. Many of the clock templates are out of date, however. The templates are all of the form {data Ecuador|poptoday 1} but with double brackets. I do not know how to fix those. Turns out Iran's is the worst right now.

Country	Template	Site	Error
Ecuador	18,322,271	18,318,690	3,581
Iran	86,558,524	85,130,276	1,428,248
Malaysia	33,045,700	32,700,459	345,241
Netherlands	17,883,640	17,870,365	13,275
Philippines	110,820,018	110,634,784	185,234

Wizmut (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@MIHAIL The Egypt population clock site[9] is down, and the template itself hasn't been updated for over a year. Is it reliable? Wizmut (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

The Egypt's online clock is quite credible. I analyzed the clock for about 2 years because I was interested in Cairo and other governorates for some information, and sometimes the authorities calibrate it. The data in the annual statistics do not differ much from the clock. At first I didn't trust Iran's online clock, but at certain times the authorities reset the clock, and it seems credible. The Philistines online clock, let's say it's credible, acceptable.

But there are online clocks I don't really trust. For example, the annual statistics or census of Canada's population indicate much less than online clock. Another example, in Morocco's online clock I do not trust. The Brazil's clock had more than 10 million people compared to the 2022 census. MIHAIL (talk) 23:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the template used to display the Egypt figure is not updated automatically. It will give a new figure at any given time, but the formula may not match that one at the website. The Capmas website is always down on my end, but if you are able to connect to it reliably, you can get a snapshot of it at two times 24 hours apart (preferably at midnight UTC), and use those two numbers to update the template itself. Wizmut (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I just became aware of the "poptoday template" or whatever the proper name for it is. I can think of seven reasons why using that in this table is a very BAD idea and only one "good" reason for its use. (The "good" reason is that some Wiki editor had the thrill of doing something he thought was very very very clever.) If there's interest I will say more.Jamesdowallen (talk) 12:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I think we would appreciate an elaboration. If we agree to do away with clocks it should be consistently applied across all countries. Svlrn (talk) 05:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

NPC Updates

Hello Wizmut et al. The good folks at StatCan slowed the NPC for Canada recently, to account for slower growth in the winter season, from just over 3,000 daily, to just over 2,400 daily, or 20 pct slower. As well, the time in Canada today went from DT back to ST, and Ottawa went from EDT to EST, (aka from GMT -4 to GMT -5 hrs.) Can you review these semi annual fluctuations vs. data in the table? The delta between the NPC and this database is ~ 33k, but you may find a solution to fix it. Thank you. DM Datamensch (talk) 03:43, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, before I try and update it, I'd be curious what you think about @Jamesdowallen's point about perhaps not using the clocks at all, and instead using yearly or quarterly estimates (the way the Canada article does, for instance). I rather prefer this as it's easier for the average editor to update. I even know how but it's still clunky. Wizmut (talk) 21:51, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the opportunity to offer my opinion. July 1st is a big day in Canada, so if you update the 2nd qtr data, (i.e. Apr, May, June,) on Jul 1, and the other 3 quarters on Oct 1, Jan 1, and Apr 1, for their respective preceding quarters, it would also align with the reporting StatCan does for the Census, which is reported on Jul 1st every 5 years, e.g. 2016, 2021, 2026, etc, and also reported annually on that date. Your table would align with the StatCan data timing, along with the other 3 quarterly estimates you mention makes sense to me. We could go monthly too, but if it isn't automated, maybe a monthly frequency is onerous to manage? If monthly data buckets are practtical to manage, they do mirror economic and other data, making monthly data the most relevant time bucket to report.Datamensch (talk) 01:50, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Quarterly makes sense to me as well, would be easiest to switch to that. Wizmut (talk) 02:14, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

StatsCan's clock is fairly accurate and well regarded. I've viewed this table for many years and I'm not sure what the argument is to use clocks vs. estimates, as there are still several other countries - i.e., Australia and the USA that are using the clocks on this table.

If it's arbitrary, then it's ripe for editing at the whims of whomever feels a clock or latest estimate is appropriate. Otherwise, this table should just become free of clocks to be consistent regardless of that national clock's trustworthiness. Svlrn (talk) 05:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I certainly favor removing all the clocks. I went through all the trouble of learning how to update them manually (they don't stay accurate on their own), and it taught me why nobody else had done it for a while.

If nobody beats me to it, or gives an argument against it, I'll put it at the top of my to-do list. Wizmut (talk) 05:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that the population clocks are polled by the editor of the Wikipedia page, either automatically or manually. Once per day is the frequency I saw Canada clock data being "reflected" onto the wiki page. Source NPCs totals are typically updating every few seconds, or more often, for larger nations, In the case of Canada, the StatCan population growth model is updated at least twice annually, when growth slows in autumn, or speeds up in Spring. In these 2 seasons, the Source NPC gets adjusted, and that is when the wiki page and the NPC diverge. It seems for the NPCs, the clock values are not directly reflected on the wiki page, else the semi annual drift between the NPC and the wiki data would not exist. Idk why this occurs. Is it for vetting the NPC data? Anyway, the wiki data that appears now appears to reflect a quarterly reporting paradigm, showing the Canada population at end of Q3. Datamensch (talk) 11:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

It's manual. Updating Template:Data Canada involves setting an alarm for midnight UTC and checking what population it is on the Canadian government's website, then doing so again exactly 24 hours later. Then the difference is calculated and the first value and the difference are used to update the clock. When I did this it really upset my schedule, and I don't want to ask anyone else to do the same just for a few more sig figs. Wizmut (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I have replaced most of the remaining NPCs with annual figures, as nobody seemed to defend the clocks.

Egypt's site[10] is still down for me, so I couldn't grab a direct citation. Incidentally the clock template[11] has also not been updated for over a year. Anybody who can connect to Egypt's statistics site, please update one or the other. Wizmut (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the effort to do this to make the list consistent. I've changed the title of Jordan's population citation as well as it was erroneously referred to as a clock when it is an annual estimate. The only remaining clock to update is Egypt's - perhaps better left to someone who can navigate their official statistics site. Svlrn (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2023

Please change the current MAP to an Updated one in which Correct INDIA's Map will show. for your reference I am mentioning some link which shows the correct MAP of INDIA. https://www.google.com/maps/place/India/@19.6928664,61.0418403,4z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x30635ff06b92b791:0xd78c4fa1854213a6!8m2!3d20.593684!4d78.96288!16zL20vMDNyazA?entry=ttu https://censusindia.gov.in/census.website/ Hoping to resolve this issue soon. Thanks 206.172.21.67 (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done The figure is a cartogram. The size of each country's blob is scaled by the data in question (population, in this case), while the overall outline of the shape is secondary. It's a remarkably well-made visualization considering the constraints involved. Wizmut (talk) 17:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Western Sahara flag

Another stalwart changer of flags has been making the rounds, so I looked up some past discussions on the matter.

Some background: Western Sahara is a disputed territory with disputed recognition. Morocco controls most of it and calls it the Southern Provinces. But the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic or SADR calls the entire thing SADR, even though they only live on a slim border portion. The African Union sides with SADR, Morocco sides with Morocco, and the UN takes no particular side.

It has been discussed on Wikiproject flags, which handles the {flag|Western Sahara} template:[12] Consensus has always seemed to be that the flag should be the {noflag} template, but people keep reverting it there too.

They have split the baby over at Western Sahara, listing both the flag of Morocco and of SADR.

And meanwhile Flag of Western Sahara identifies as an article about flags being used, not about flags being not used.

So the question remains: what should the flag of Western Sahara be on country lists? I kinda doubt that the central place to have this discussion is here, but where? Wizmut (talk) 15:00, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Since there is only one Flag of Western Sahara, the question kind of answers itself. M.Bitton (talk) 15:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The NPOV question comes up because the disputed territory is the same name as the declared state, and they refer to slightly different objects.

The Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article seems to have been merged into the Flag of Western Sahara article with the reason "Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic can easily be a section of this article"[13]. One commenter complained that such a merger would contradict an earlier RfC[14] that held the article should be about all the flags that are used, similar to Flag of Antarctica. Seems to have been a valid concern, because the former article about uncertainty eventually bowed to one about a definite object.

Consider how this is very indeterminate. This is even more confusing than a debate about, say Donetsk Oblast versus Donetsk People's Republic (as it would have been a few years ago) because "Western Sahara" is the same string of characters as "Western Sahara", because Morocco no longer applies a single flag to the region (it uses a few seals, though), and because the levels of recognition are slightly different. But imagine if those differences didn't exist. A Donetsk vs Donetsk debate could already leave a on the page, and this is even less certain. Wizmut (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Actually, NPOV only comes into play when the sources disagree about something. In this case and until proven otherwise, the Flag of Western Sahara refers to a single flag. M.Bitton (talk) 17:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Please do not revert to contentious changes until the issue has been discussed. Wizmut (talk) 17:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Please follow your own advice given that you're the one who reverted multiple editors. M.Bitton (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jolianomans1505 Your input is requested. Wizmut (talk) 17:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

@Lasunncty @N. Mortimer Your input is requested. Wizmut (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

That looks like WP:CANVASSING to me. M.Bitton (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

A similar discussion recently occurred at the area list. I also solicited comment from the person who originally made the contentious edits. Wizmut (talk) 17:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Even more of a reason to consider your well chosen pings as WP:CANVASSING. You're welcome to discussion this issue here and provide a valid reason (i.e., something other than a "similar discussion ..."). M.Bitton (talk) 18:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I provided several reasons, and they are all valid. We are discussing two things which have the same name. Wizmut (talk) 18:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Your reasons were based on your opinion (mentioning NPOV when in fact, all the sources about the flag of Western Sahara are unanimous about what it means). M.Bitton (talk) 18:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

What does it mean, the region or the alternative name for SADR? Wizmut (talk) 18:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not interested in WP:OR. Like I said, all the sources about the flag of Western Sahara are unanimous about what it is. M.Bitton (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

It's not OR, it's a logical argument based on past consensus. Look at how the Western Sahara article is full of sources that distinguish the region and the state.

The entry on this list is about the region as well as the claimed territory of the smaller state. All treatment on WP of Western Sahara has to take care around this issue. That's why the Western Sahara article lists two flags, that's why so many editors in the past have noted how ambiguous the situation is. There's even a Template:Western_Sahara-note which was thought necessary to avoid having to rewrite the need for neutrality here. Wizmut (talk) 18:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

This is about the flag of Western Sahara, so the only valid argument should be about it and nothing else. At the risk of repeating myself, neutrality (i,.e, NPOV) only comes into play when the reliable sources about something disagree, this is clearly not the case. Please see Flag of Western Sahara and if you're still not satisfied, Google it and see what comes up. M.Bitton (talk) 18:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I get this[15] - not a reliable source. And I get "Flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic" in big words. And I get Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. And I get this [16] which starts "The flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic,..." Google seems to be correcting me for searching for something that doesn't exist.

The entry on the list is for the region/claimed land, not the flag, so it's not "about the flag and nothing else". Wizmut (talk) 18:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I find that hard to believe given that I get nothing else but the Flag of Western Sahara (I'm fairly certain that everyone else will see what I'm seeing). Of course it's about the flag (the very thing that you're removing). M.Bitton (talk) 18:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

You will have to believe me. Perhaps we have different search histories. And perhaps the conversation has taken on too many "you"s and "I"s - a lot of our posts have been about the other person rather than the topic.

If we can't agree on what the discussion is about then we're probably not going to make any progress. I hope you have a good holiday, and look forward to contributions from somebody who agrees with either one of us. Wizmut (talk) 18:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. That was just a figure of speech btw. Happy holidays and a happy new year to you. Best, M.Bitton (talk) 19:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Western Sahara is a disputed territory split between two opposing governments that do not agree on what flag should fly there. Since the population figure here presumably is the total of both Moroccan and SADR citizens, to only show one flag is not neutral. The Flag of Western Sahara article seems to favor the SADR flag, even though it does state that "the Moroccan flag is used on the occupied parts of Western Sahara." --Lasunncty (talk) 00:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

India outnumbering China

I thought recently that Indians outnumber Chinese? 92.24.230.78 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

See List of countries by population (United Nations). Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It did. Apparent according to an edit made back in July this page is based on UN estimates. 24.216.160.195 (talk) 21:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Misread the edit, what I mean is it only uses UN estimates when official ones are unavailable. 24.216.160.195 (talk) 21:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

India and China

@Adithya Shankaran please provide an edit summary and an official source for your recent changes. If no source is provided, edits can be reverted for no other reason. Please use the talk page to discuss changes that have been challenged rather than reverting again. See the revert and discuss cycle. Wizmut (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

@Adithya Shankaran Wizmut (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Exception for India

Should we use the UN source for India until they publish their census results?

Almost a year ago this article was protected with the note "semi-ing to calm this down until the issue is settled". Well, the issue has not been settled.

The issue is that most demographers think India has outgrown China. But India doesn't want to say so, instead repeatedly delaying its census, possibly for internal political reasons.[17]

In total, India has delayed its 2021 census nine times.[18] They have also not published birth and death data since 2020.[19]

Right now entries on this table are usually not more than 10 years old. And between India's lack of base data and marginal data, their estimates are probably no better than one that is 10 years old. Their latest projections were published in 2020, and even their guess for March 2024 doesn't put them ahead of China's Jan 2024 estimate. Wizmut (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging frequent editors of this article: @MIHAIL @Sokndal @TU-nor Wizmut (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I am fully aware of the problem, but I am reluctant to make any exceptions to the main rule. It is difficult enough to fence off editors that have found a "better" number for this or that country as it is. If they can argue that "you did that for India", it is difficult to uphold the rule for other countries that may have even older estimates.

An afterthought: Perhaps it would be an idea to make the note "According to UN estimates, India surpassed China by the end of Apr 2023" more visible, perhaps by attaching it to the country names of China and India.

--T*U (talk) 09:05, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I made this mock-up, based on the big area list:

	Country / Dependency	Population	% of world	Date	Source (official or from the United Nations)
–	World	8,108,845,000	100%	26 May 2024	UN projection
1/2	China	1,409,670,000	17.4%	31 Dec 2023	Official estimate
	India	1,392,329,000	17.2%	1 Mar 2023	Official projection

Wizmut (talk) 09:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)