Talk:Julian (emperor)/Archive 3

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About the quote from Gibbon

Someone please check this one. At least Constantine didn't pursued the pagans and I can't remember him letting christian mobs to destroy pagan temples and "slaughter" paganists. Gibbon is too outdated to be used as a serious reference Dipa1965 (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Gibbon does not say "slaughtered". His assertion that Constantine looted the pagan temples (using Imperial troops, for the Imperial exchequer) is based, as often, on the Church Fathers; in this case Eusebius of Caesarea, Life of Constantine Book III, chapter 54 (page down). Doubtless some bloodshed took place in the process, but that will not justify the wording here. I have removed the link to the Theodosian massacres. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Anthropomancy?

Was there any material published on Julians use of Anthropomancy? Did he ever commit to writing his use and morality on the use of it? And why did he feel motivated to use it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redblossom (talk • contribs) 19:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Have you got any reference for Julian's use of anthropomancy? --Sjappé (talk) 21:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Given the man's attempt to revive classical religious practice, Anthropomancy would have been extremely implausible, as human sacrifice was abhorrent to the Romans despite their other blood-thirsty practices. It strikes me as something concocted by his early Christian enemies to slander him. Scromett (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Well this is the thing, the wiki article on Anthropomancy suggests that Julian was involved in this practice, and i was looking for a reference/citation here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.243.55 (talk) 20:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC) --Redblossom (talk) 20:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

A quick google search doesn't come up with anything on Julian and human sacrifice apart from some ill-informed (and unreferenced) Christian rants. A quick search of the academic journals on JSTOR comes up with nothing also. Appears to be yet another unfounded allegation against Julian. I've commented on the Anthropomancy discussion page about the riskiness of taking such allegations seriously, especially in the context of the classical world. 82.44.82.167 (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The only reference which i found was a book published by the Masonic historian Arthur Edward Waite. The book was called "The Occult Sciences". I think it was published in the 1920's —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.240.199 (talk) 11:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've made a quick review of possible sources in the WikiProject Occult talk page.--Legion fi (talk) 07:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Commented there. Ancient defamation, which there is no particular reason to believe. The proper way of handling such matters is a section on Julian's reputation, which should be limited to historic uses, not the modern religious controversy. Thus, it should also include Samuel Johnson (pamphleteer). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 8 July 2008

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 19:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Julian the Apostate → Julian of Rome — The title displays a POV that can easily offend non-Christians. Many academic sources have been cited, showing that "the Apostate" is a descriptor very often left out. An alterate name to be proposed could Flavius Claudius Iulianus. The main goal is to get "the Apostate" out of the name — Thegreyanomaly (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey, closed

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • SUPPORT As per my reasons from the last RM and as per the reasons above. The page needs to be move. We technically won last time, we had one person who came in slightly too late and couldn't vote. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 01:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
    • support Flavius Claudius Iulianus as per above and below. In hindsight, picking Julian of Rome over Flavius Claudius Iulianus was a really bad idea. Why I picked it, part of it has to do with the fact that Julian of Rome is a redirect from the main page... long story Thegreyanomaly (talk) 04:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I oppose the name change to Julian of Rome and support the name change to Flavius Claudius Iulianus for the various reasons I've stated before (he obviously wouldn't have self-described as an "apostate", blatant Christian point of view in title (WP:NPOV), etc.) but I understand that we have Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans) and that this may be the best place to make needed changes first - i.e. ruler article titles by their actual names rather than non-neutral descriptors. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:46, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Does this mean you don't support a move to Julian of Rome? --Akhilleus (talk) 02:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that is correct. With this response, I have clarified my position above. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:41, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Carl.bunderson (talk) 07:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC). Per WP policy, we are to use "the most common name of a person". A quick google shows 127k results for "julian the apostate", and 3.57k for "julian of rome". This shows "Julian the Apostate" to be used 35x as much as is "Julian of Rome". Therefore the proposal fails under this criterion. Per a "controversial name policy on the same page, this page should not be move3d to agree with politically-correct sensibilities. Again, on the WP:Name page:
"The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more. In particular, the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name, or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles. Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles. Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another. If an article name has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should remain. Especially when there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail."
  • support I have stated my reasons above, the main ones being: the current title gives undue emphasis on a certain POV (the christian one), presedence establishes that a dynastic title can be preferred over even the most well known titles (e.g. the case of Ivan the Terrible) and thirdly he was not known by this name during his lifetime nor did he self identify as "apostate".·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. WP policy clearly states that the most common name should be used. You don't make new policies on specific articles. Wandalstouring (talk) 15:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Various forms of this move request have been made before, most recently in February (see above). I don't see much different about this proposal, except that the proposed target is now "Julian of Rome" rather than "Flavius Claudius Iulianus". "Julian of Rome" is an even less common way of referring to this emperor than "Flavius Claudius Iulianus"--this Google Scholar search for "Julian of Rome" gets 6 results, and I'm not even sure that the results are for the emperor--as I note below in the "discussion" section, "Julian of Rome" sometimes refers to other people. In contrast, previous discussions have shown that "Julian the Apostate" is the most common name in English for our article's subject.

Since some people will not bother to read the previous discussion, here's some evidence that "Julian the Apostate" is the most common name:
The "support" voters don't challenge the fact that "Julian the Apostate" is the most common title. Instead, they seem to be offended by the alleged "POV" in calling him an apostate. But I'll repeat something I say above: the neutral point of view policy does not mean "Wikipedia articles shouldn't offend me." It means that Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all significant published points of view, in proportion the the prominence of each. For historical subjects, the best sources to turn to are academic literature published in the appropriate field--in this case, ancient history and classical studies. As the Google Scholar searches demonstrate, scholars in those fields use the name "Julian the Apostate."
Lastly, I note that these discussions are not supposed to be majority votes--we're supposed to discuss which article title best fits with the naming conventions. Instead of counting votes to see who "wins", I hope that the closing admin will evaluate whose arguments best conform to policy. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose. As WP:UE says, we should follow the usage of reliable sources, such as the sources for the article. I am pleased to see that these include Glen Bowersock's Julian the Apostate, which I come to this discussion from reading; he is from Oxford, Harvard, and the Institute of Advanced Study. (I see no evidence that Julian is called Julian of Rome at all; as far as I can see, he was never in Rome.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Julian the Apostate" is clearly the most common designation for this emperor. Deor (talk) 20:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Wandalstouring DigitalC (talk) 00:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Epithets such as "the Apostate" are used for many sovereigns (e.g. Alfred the Great, Louis the Pious). It is irresponsible for wiki-editors to try to use Wikipedia to change scholarship. If at some point books about Julian stop generally referring to him as "the Apostate", then Wikipedia should change the article title. Noel S McFerran (talk) 03:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This has nothing to do with POV and everything to do with usage. See Alexander the Great, Age of Enlightenment, and Annus Mirabilis Papers. Srnec (talk) 05:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per WP:NOTCENSORED, whether people are offended is not our concern.--Yolgnu (talk) 09:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Julian of Rome, support Flavius Claudius Iulianus or Julian, or Julian ("the Apostate"). Julian of Rome is very confusing and misleading (Julian wasn't even born or raised there). Anyway, I don't think that the current voting would help in anything. The two parties will keep disagreeing forever, regardless of the validity of their arguments. This is mostly because of the extremists, I think: some (perhaps in the minority) at the opposing side push their strong Christian bias, while neo-paganism sympathizers idealize every aspect of the personality of their idol. In the middle, there are quite a few opposers with reasonable WP:NAME concerns and supporters of renaming with historical accuracy concerns. If I would hope to convince the former, I would object that the part of the WP:NAME policy which concerns them is not universally applied in Wikipedia. For instance, Ivan IV of Russia with 1760 Google Scholar hits (searching for "Ivan IV" -"the Terrible") is used instead of "Ivan the Terrible" with 5.380 hits. To the latter you may also add "Ivan IV the Terrible" which has 438 hits. Btw, "offensiveness" of the current name is not my biggest concern, it's rather historical accuracy that I want to improve. Dipa1965 (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
    • I don't recognize any of the opposers as being Christian advocates; I don't know that any of us are Christians. I'm a classicist (so are others), and it is as a classicist I am offended. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Also canvassed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:08, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Nah, canvassed or not by the original poster (whose action was improper anyway), I always have this talk page on my watch list. And I will repeat that I don't care much about voting except for the value of the associated discussion Dipa1965 (talk) 05:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Julian the Apostate is more popular for reasons solely to do with pro-Christian bias. One "oppose" said people wouldn't be able to find the entry under another name, but Julian the Apostate could still redirect to any other page. I am not a neo-pagan, or one of their sympathizers. I would also point to Ivan IV, whose "terrible" name is not used by Wikipedia, although being far more popular. To me, to any of the 4+ billion non-Christians on Earth, Julian is not an Apostate. After reading Ammanius Marcellinus I found a lot to respect about Julian, especially his humble ways (sleeping on a rug in the field, like his soldiers). Calling him Apostate undermines that from the get-go. JoshNarins (talk) 20:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
    • This !vote has been produced by canvassing, which is improper; it violates WP:CANVASS. I must accept that this editor is not acting from neo-pagan bias, since he says so; I will repeat more clearly that I am not acting from Christian bias - indeed I admire Julian myself, and am no Christian. We use Ivan IV of Russia, not because the Terrible is wrong, but because WP:NCNT prefers to call European monarchs by the predictable "Name Number of Country" when that format is used at all; but we use Edward the Confessor and Charles Martel, both originally Christian epithets. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Why should this user be punished for my lack of knowledge? I did not know about the canvassing policy up until you mentioned it to me. Had I known of this policy I would not have done what I did. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
His views should be discounted; one of the values of these discussions is the collection of a more or less random sample of editors. Thegreyanomaly solicited !votes from one side of the previous discussion, twice, and argued for one side as he did so. This changes who knows about this discussion, and who chooses to respond to this debate out of all those on their watchlists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I think we could solve all of these issues by simply calling Roman figures by their names. Right now, the title of the article basically reads as "Julian the Traitor" - there's really no getting around that - it's obviously the point of view of his detractors that has stuck for obvious reasons. I don't like "Julian of Rome" at all as it has plenty of problems, but simply calling the article by the subject's name - Flavius Claudius Iulianus - is extremely logical in my mind. Trust me, I am repulsed by censorship and those who censor, but this isn't an issue of censorship; it's an issue of logic.. Shouldn't we be calling him by his name? Of course, with such a change, Julian the Apostate should most definitely be discussed thoroughly and appear bolded in the lead as redirects would go here and it's commonly used. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Trust me, I am repulsed by censorship and those who censor, but this isn't an issue of censorship; it's an issue of logic. So says every censor, many of them, as here, sincerely. Christians may see Apostate as "traitor", although I can't actually think of any living ones who do; others should not. Would calling Julian "by his name" involve moving all the other Romans we call, properly, by something other than their Latin names: Hadrian, Trajan, Diocletian, Constantine, Justinian; Virgil, Ovid, Livy, Horace? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Obviously, there is no censorship being proposed here. What is being debated is the name of the article and, in my case, whether or not the article should be titled after the man's name or what his enemies called him and what stuck has stuck into modern times, though any serious study will also pointedly mention his name as well. Under no circumstance would I accept that the title, itself important, be removed from the article. If the Ivan the the Terrible article name has been changed, then we can certainly look at doing so here and with the rest of the naming conventions that pose similar problems on Wikipedia. Was the Ivan move censorship? This will certainly not be the last time the issue comes up. Calling figures with controversial article titles by their names instead would solves practically all problems that could arise and would be perfectly straight to the point - this article is a solid case example. "Julian the Apostate" was not the man's name. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
What is wrong with Apostate is that it's not his name? Its the name we call him by, and, frankly, we're all that matters now. His contemporaries aren't discussing him any longer: pejoratively or otherwise. Many historical figures get stuck with epithets. Many are unflattering, some are inaccurate, many are later inventions, quite a few are exaggerations. And "Apostate" is hardly POV. It means "a person who forsakes his religion" and etymologically it has connotations of "stepping aside/back". Julian was an apostate. He forsook his Christian religion for a new one. We could call him Julian the Convert, except that that hasn't caught on. Srnec (talk) 23:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Now we're getting into a debate that will get us nowhere - i.e. it was his religion? He obviously rejected it in favor of tradition. Should we call people by their accurate names or what we're calling them now? Anyway, what it boils down is that I support a far-reaching policy on using actual names rather than post-mortem titles with dubious descriptors (as I've again mentioned above) to prevent situations like this, but would oppose any renaming here until the agreed policy regarding Roman names itself has changed, else we'll just go around in circles. In fact, to get to the root of the issue, this whole poll and conversation don't really belong here - instead, a full discussion would be best held had at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans). I don't think I have anything new to say here that I haven't repeated various times in the last few polls about this article title. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Shorter Bloodofox: "I have an idea on how the English language should be changed, but you spoilsports and WP:NCRN won't have Wikipedia help me do so." Right, we won't. As the convention says, The "most common" rule always trumps, so for instance we use Livy instead of Titus Livius, and Germanicus instead of Germanicus Julius Caesar. In addition, the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd summarize it more like: "We're discussing this pointlessly in the wrong place, it should be WP:NCRN." Further, I can think of a few changes I'd make to the English language but I'll spare you. ;} :bloodofox: (talk) 00:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose - searches of scholarly material readily reveal "Julian the Apostate" to be the most common name. Also, see WP:NOTCENSORED - we don't care about offending Muslims who might take offense at those photos; so too, we don't care that something "can easily offend non-Christians", provided the "something" in question is found in a preponderance of reliable sources. Biruitorul Talk 20:33, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
This is wrong analogy. We are not talking about censoring content. It's about a *title* that supposedly pushes a POV. Imagine the above example article titled as "Muhammad ridiculed by a cartoon" or something. Dipa1965 (talk) 05:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
True, there may be good reasons for moving, and neither side proposes to censor content. But if there is a move, let the reason be policy-based, not fear of offending non-Christian sensibilities. Biruitorul Talk 06:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose on the grounds that Julian of Rome is simply wrong, as discussed above. To me, Julian II seems like the right way to go (as per Constantine I). However, present policy dictates we use the most common way of reference, which is unquestionably the present title. While I personally disagree with said policy, this is not the place to discuss it. For an alternative that, I hope, can be a middle way that upholds present policy, all the while taking some note of non-Christian sensibilities, please see my proposal below. Druworos (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion (closed)

Any additional comments:

Please cite sources (in this section), that refer to him as Julian of Rome. DigitalC (talk) 06:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC). [Edit: fix typographical mind-elsewhere error] DigitalC (talk) 07:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, this source refers to a "Julian of Rome" who was suffect consul in 325. Whoever that is, it's clearly not our Julian, who wasn't even born yet. Here we find a "Pope Julian of Rome" (this must be Pope_Julius_I). This suggests that "Julian of Rome" is an ambiguous name. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
And this one says that the "Emperor Julian of Rome" devised the Julian calendar of 365 days, and that Pope Gregory added a day every fourth year. (I'm not sure where they find these people; but if this means anybody, it's Julius Caesar, not Julian.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

This is the second time the same editor has attempted to change the name of this article from common and unambiguous English usage to something more suitable to his POV. This is contrary to policy: Wikipedia is not censored; this effort is also an introduction of positive error. I am willing to endorse a Request for Comment on this patently disruptive behaviour; if it happens again, I will consider going to the trouble of writing one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I've never written an RfC before, but I'll help you if you choose to go through with it, Anderson. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • A google search for '"Julian the apostate" -wiki' turns up ~80,000 hits. A similar search for '"Flavius Claudius Iulianus" -wiki' turns up ~6000. Julian the apostate is clearly used more often than Flavius Claudius Iulianus. WP:NAME states: Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. It is clear here that a greater number of English speakers would more easily recognize him by Julian the Apostate than by Flavius Claudius Iulianus. - DigitalC (talk) 00:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
    • WP:NAME also states "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.". How many of the sources (as currently used in the article) use the "Flavius Claudius Iulianus"? How many use "Julian of Rome"? - DigitalC (talk) 00:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Julian the Apostate: At least half, as the titles show.
      • Julian of Rome: I would be amazed if there were any.
      • Iulianus as the English name: almost certainly none. (Note the I.)
      • The real alternative is Julian, but it is ambiguous to the point of unusability, and not only against Romans. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Naming dispute (again)

OK, so I realise that this has already been discussed to death, but please, bare me with me for five minutes. Personally, I find the epithet "Apostate" easily as pejorative as "William the Bastard" for William I. However, this may have to do with my being Greek and actually knowing what apostate means. Secondly, "Apostate" is not actually a description of a fact, as he was never Christian to begin with (not by choice, anyway). And thirdly, he himself would have muchly opposed the epithet.

Notwithstanding, I realise that policy dictates we use the most common name, and I cannot dispute the fact that "the Apostate" is actually the most common way of reference. Personally, I think this policy sucks, but I also fully realise this is not the place to discuss this.

In light of the above, I would suggest a move to Julian 'the Apostate', Julian "the Apostate" or Julian (the Apostate) (with Julian the Apostate redirecting there). This would still be using the most common English usage, all the while making some small recognition that "the Apostate" was, at the very least, not something he called himself by choice.

On a side, as for classical scholarship having Christian POV, a) it sure can have such a POV, and b) even if it doesn't, it can deffinitely carry on a previous POV-influenced policy. Myself, I find the epithet to be utterly POV, but again, I realise what the policy is. However, a small concession as outlined above wouldn't (I should think) hurt the policy too much.

Druworos (talk) 21:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Very well put. I am a Greek too so I think the word sounds even worse to me than to any non-native Greek reader. Anyway, I have also made a similar proposal above, namely Julian ("the Apostate"). Of course, it might seem an awful compromise to the purists (as any compromise does) but it's fair (with the prerequisition that the current name will be always kept as a redirect). Dipa1965 (talk) 18:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
If it will settle this, so we don't have to go through this every couple months, I would support such a compromise. But were someone to make the argument that he was never called "Julian 'the Apostate'", nor Julian (the Apostate), I might be swayed against it. That was the reason for my waiting to reply, Druworos, wanting to see if someone would make a well-argued case against it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm under the impression nothing will really settle this. I hope however (speaking only for myself) that enough people may deem it reasonably satisfactory. Druworos (talk) 19:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I accept this compromise. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
So would I.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 20:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I very strongly oppose this proposal; it is no compromise. This would serve none of the purposes of using the common name: making this page easy to link to and to find. Furthermore, scare quotes are bad English, and contrary to Wikipedia:Words to avoid: their only function is to insinuate a POV. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Just for the sake of argument...I can see that the quotes insinuate a POV and would be a poor choice. But is Julian (the Apostate) so bad? I don't read the POV in that that one would find in Julian "the Apostate". And the easy to link to point is a good one, I think. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Straight Julian would be better; it's the second most common term. But it would involve moving the dab page, and demonstration that this is overwhelmingly the most common use of Julian. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Julian wouldn't bother me, except that my first reaction is that it's too ambiguous. On the other hand, the only other Julian that came immediately to mind was Julian of Norwich, so perhaps it's not too ambiguous. (Obviously figures such as Julian Barnes will cause no confusion here.) --Akhilleus (talk) 22:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Julian the Hospitaler may yield to the Emperor under the rules of WP:NCRN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, Julian is too ambiguous. I prefer keeping it (which is really my first choice) where it is to moving to Julian. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason to change the name, unless it can be shown that a majority of sources are using some variant such as Julian (the Apostate) vel sim. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The current title of this article is fine. It is the most common form by far and it is not POV. We are not talking about a Greek word, but the English word "apostate", which just means one who has abandoned his religion. It is a descriptive, not a normative, word. I see no reason why, whether Julian was ever a Christian or not, this should be an inherently negative thing. Certainly even Christians want non-Christians, such as Muslims, to apostasise. Indeed, by claiming the it is pejorative to label Julian an "apostate", does one not implicitly acknowledge that to apostasise from Christianity is a bad thing and thus take up a Christian POV? Srnec (talk) 02:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
No one is saying that it is a bad thing to apostate - we are just saying that he is only an apostate from the christian viewpoint to begin with, from for example a prechristian roman viewpoint he might have been called "the traditionalist". The scarequotes in this proposal to me do not mean that it is pejorative but only that it is an epithet given to him by others and not a part of his name. An other proposal I'd support would be Julian, Roman Emperor.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 05:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
No, he is an apostate from any viewpint except that which doesn't believe he was a "Christian" in any sense to begin with. A minor difference of opinion, in my view. I no people who have left one religion for another. I can call them an apostate from their first religion even though that is not my religion. In short, the word "apostate" is not directional. Srnec (talk) 06:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I have never seen that word used by any other than christians - I don't believe you are able to demonstrate its usage for by non-christians. Someone who leaves the muslim faith for example would never be called an apostate. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
It is used by/of non-Christians; I have seen it before. I've even seen it used specifically of former Muslims. If you read a definition of the word, it will not mention Christianity, nor any particular religion. The first definition in the OED reads "One who abjures or forsakes his religious faith, or abandons his moral allegiance; a pervert." The second is peculiar to the RCC, and the third is even so general that it is not restricted to religion: "One who deserts his party, or forsakes his allegiance or troth; a turncoat, a renegade." One can apostatize from basically any belief. For a solid example of its non-Christian use, see this quote from a piece by Bejamin Disraeli: "No one is petted so much as a political apostate, except, perhaps a religious one." This is more than ample demonstration that the argument that we can not demonstrate its usage by non-Christians has no legs on which to stand. Carl.bunderson (talk) 09:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Moreover, a simple google of "muslim apostate" yields 411k results, and in the top ten there are clear examples of calling persons who have left Islam "apostates". Carl.bunderson (talk) 09:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I, for one, will not contest that it can, indeed, be used for non-Christians leaving their faith. However, I would argue two things: a) it is a point of contention whether "apostate", in Julian's case, is a description of fact, as it has been muchly argued he was never a true Christian, but was coerced into a faith he abandoned as soon as the opportunity presented itself. "Apostate" doesn't really fit this, and titling the page Julian the Apostate, with absolutely no qualifier of the epithet, seems to me to implicitly take sides in said contention, implying that Julian really was a sincere Christian at any point of his life. b) As per your own OED definition, Carl.bunderson, see a few synonyms you yourself list: a pervert, a turncoat, a renegade. These are, mind you, English synonyms. And to me at least, they do seem pejorative, as does apostate. Furthermore, moving to (for instance) Julian (the "Apostate") would not make the page at all hard to find, as Julian the Apostate would still redirect there. If you were to agree to this move, I for myself volunteer to fix present links to Julian the Apostate to the new location (for no other reason than my love of Julian, frankly). Druworos (talk) 14:03, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Never. This would be an imposition of a point of view by a non-native speaker, contrary to English usage. Please read WP:NPOV and go edit an article to which you do not have emotional ties. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
This is not an acceptale level of debate mr Manderson. Druworos has as one of the only participants in this discussion argued sensibly and with no emotionally laden responses. The above comment can only be seen as an ad hominem attack. You are also way out of line by implying that only native english speakers can have valid opinions about english usage. Druworos presented a well argued case that suggest that apostate does indeed hold negative connotaions in english usage. You can disagree but to try to deny him his right to present arguments on the basis of him being a native speaker of a different language is simply base.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 19:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Umm... I believe there are strict rules against insulting someone on based on their linguistic abilities. Refer to WP:CIV. [offtopic]Just to note, i am not intentionally ignoring the debate, it just so happens I have an organic chemistry midterm Tuesday and a probability midterm friday; studying for them is priority #1[/offtopic] Thegreyanomaly (talk) 06:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Heaven forbid my holding a BA in English Language and Literature and teaching English for a living should enable me to correctly interpret an OED entry. Perhaps I'll just go off and not be involved with this anymore. Or perhaps I'll ask you to point out where exactly I'm pushing a POV. As for editing articles I have no emotional ties to, well, frankly, I don't feel like doing that. How hard is it to believe that one can set aside one's emotional ties and try to objectively examine the issue at hand? If you really believe I'm a neo-pagan proselytiser, don't bother responding. If you don't, start your response with an apology, otherwise be sure that I shan't bother with it. Druworos (talk) 14:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Admittedly, 'pervert' is pejorative. But I would not say that turncoat and renegade are, though they could be used that way if someone wanted to. But if we look at the usage of apostate you won't find it often used as a pejorative. It is simply a descriptor of someone who has left their faith. And the argument that it may be inaccurate is irrelevant. The page name policy does not say that titles of persons must be apt; history and scholarship know him as 'Julian the Apostate', so that is what we call him. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
While I agree that "turncoat" and "renegade" may not be inherently negative, their constant use in a negative context imbues them with a negative semantic prosody (pardon the linguistics jargon). At any rate, Julian the Apostate is almost synonymous with "Julian the Traitor". If you honestly feel that "the Traitor" would not be a pejorative epithet, then I rest my case. Druworos (talk) 14:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The semantic prosody is getting a bit over my head, but I'll continue anyway. "The Traitor" would be a pejorative epithet, I agree. But I'm not willing to accept that Julian the Apostate and Julian the Traitor are synonyms. Basically, I don't believe that apostate has the negative connotation that you're saying it does. Granted, the accessory definitions from the OED (pervert, turncoat, renegade) are negative. Would you say that all the forms of the word 'apostate' are negative? Apostasy, apostatize...I know there are others. The word is a statement of fact. If someone apostatizes, they are an apostate. Also, Charles the Bald and Charles the Fat are at those locations, and I think that in present-day Western society, bald and fat are probly more readibly recognized as negative than is apostate. And given your semantic prosody point, isn't the compromise of calling him Julian (the Apostate) still associating Julian with a (supposedly) negative word? Moreover, I think this is a bit of a rabbit hole. Even if 'the Apostate' were pejorative, it wouldn't lead me the conclusion that we should move the article. The policy nowhere says that we can't use pejorative epithets in page names (cf the Charles articles). We are to use the most common name, which is Julian the Apostate. There's really no getting around this. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I realise (and agree) that there is no way, while keeping with current policy, that we could use anything other that some form of Julian the Apostate as the title. My point is only that a) this was in no way what he would have called himself, b) since it is (to me) a pejorative epithet, he would have likely opposed being called that, and, c) by outright titling the article Julian the Apostate we implicitly take sides in the debate of whether Julian can be truly considered to have ever been a sincere Christian (otherwise he couldn't really have apostatised). For the above reasons, I propose we add some sort of qualification to the title, the shortest, most concise, and least POV-ladden of which is simply to add parentheses, as in Julian (the Apostate). Druworos (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
And I am personally, if weakly, open to that solution, as I said in my first reply to your initial post :) Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


So Druworos was right. Nothing can settle this dispute. I am deeply astonished by the obstinacy any attempt to compromise is confronted with. As if the reliability of the entire Wikipedia could be challenged by an exception to a naming convention already abolished in other cases: Ivan the Terrible→Ivan V of Russia, Joanna the Mad→Joanna of Castille, Saint Luis (or Luis the Pious)→Louis IX of France, Constantine the Great→Constantine I and so on (check Google Scholar hits yourselves). Is it so important to keep the "use the most common name" rule? Then fix ALL exceptions. Until then, I don't get this "most common name" argument as sincere and I quit this discussion once for all. Dipa1965 (talk) 16:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

We have a special convention for most European monarchs using the general Western European namestock at WP:NCNT. Perhaps it should be abolished; some editors think so, and they have a good case. But if it were abolished, those who oppose it would indeed replace it with most common name; that's a weak argument for further departures. Where it does not apply, we certainly use derogatory but established nicknames from Ptolemy VIII Physcon to Vlad III the Impaler. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I am truly saddened that what I'd hoped could be a conciliatory proposal stirred such a controversy. I am far more saddened that it would cause a user such as Septentrionalis, whose contributions I have often watched, and whom thus far I had held in high regard, to sink to personal attacks against me. Truly, "debates" such as this take away the eagerness to contribute to this, or for that matter any other, article. Especially the ones I care about, since I should, according to Septentrionalis, stay well clear of those. At any rate, since it has often been suggested that I, and a lot of other people, go off and read Wikipedia:Naming conventions, in the apparent belief that since we can't read English we wouldn't bother with it anyway, here's what Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans) has to say on the matter: 'the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones, so we have Titus, Claudius, and Nero as articles on individuals, even though these are generic names shared by many other Romans'. Which is to say, name the bloody thing Julian or Julianus, and everyone else who may have been called that yields to the emperor. In view of this, I can very well argue that adding (the Apostate), even in parentheses, after Julian is actually a concession, made against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), to some people's POV. And before you go on and quote the previous sentence from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), make sure you quote it in full: 'The "most common" rule always trumps, so for instance we use Livy instead of Titus Livius, and Germanicus instead of Germanicus Julius Caesar.' Note that the examples given involve using the English rather than Latin form of the name, or the agnomen rather than full name, not using a pejorative nickname. Before you go on to quote Caligula, note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which you so much cherish quoting, reads: 'an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles'. Thus, in full accordance with the above, I hereby suggest we enforce policy and rename the article Julian (possibly adding (Roman Emperor) as a disambiguation, though even that is strictly speaking against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans)). Druworos (talk) 07:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2008

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 01:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Julian the Apostate → Julian — According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones, so we have Titus, Claudius, and Nero as articles on individuals, even though these are generic names shared by many other Romans. Which is to say that this article should be named Julian or Julianus, and everyone else who may have been called that yields to the emperor. In view of this, adding (the Apostate), even in parentheses, after Julian is actually a concession, made against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), to some people's POV. Before you go on and quote the previous sentence from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), make sure you quote it in full: The "most common" rule always trumps, so for instance we use Livy instead of Titus Livius, and Germanicus instead of Germanicus Julius Caesar. Note that the examples given involve using the English rather than Latin form of the name, or the agnomen rather than full name, not using a nickname (pejorative or not is besides the point). Before you go on to quote Caligula, note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions reads: an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles. Thus, in full accordance with the above, I hereby suggest we enforce policy and rename the article Julian. I would agree to a small concession, namely adding (Roman Emperor) as a disambiguation, though even that is strictly speaking against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans). — Druworos (talk) 08:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: according to Google Scholar, the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian" (not counting occurences of the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian the Apostate") occurs 2,529 times. The exact phrase "Julian the Apostate" occurs 2,812 times. This is already a rather even distribution. However, it should also be noted that while the exact phrase "Julian the Apostate" exhausts, obviously, all occurences of "Julian the Apostate", the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian" does not exhaust all occurences of "Julian". In fact, "Julian", without being preceded by "the Emperor", is likely to occur quite a few times in the literature. The exact number cannot be counted (except manually). However, it is likely there are at least 300 occurences, thus putting "Julian" ahead of "Julian the Apostate". Druworos (talk) 21:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Also note that "the Emperor Julian"yields, as noted, 2,529 results. "The Emperor Julian the Apostate" 171. Druworos (talk) 07:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey (closed)

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support, as per above. Druworos (talk) 08:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Hard to confuse him with any other Julian. Dimadick (talk) 13:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, per nominator. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. The poll for the same issue has just been closed above. Just one-two days later, I see a new poll! I do not see the reason for doing that. My personal opinion: The most common name of the person in question is "Julian the Apostate". This is how it should be the article's title.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Please note that the previous poll was on a different proposal, with a completely different rationale. The previous proposal suggested a move based on the notion that "the Apostate" is a pejorative epithet. This proposal makes no such claim, and its argumentation is founded only on Wikipedia naming conventions. As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), [t]he essence of the convention is to use the shortest unambiguous name as the title of the article, which, again according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), is Julian, since the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles. Thus, "the Apostate" is an unnecessary adition to the title of this article, making it longer than it has to be (regardless of whether it is pejorative or not). Furthermore, according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), and the guidelines and examples listed therein, even if Julian is deemed to be too ambiguous, the proper title would be Claudius Julianus (the shortest unambiguous name), or alternatively Julian (Emperor), as per add a dated biographical detail, such as the date of a consulship, if the full name is shared by several. However, since the full name is not in fact shared, the correct way to go, as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), is to use the shortest unambiguous name, whether Julian or Claudius Julianus (in my view, for reasons also founded on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), the former). Druworos (talk) 16:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, but the basis of this specific naming convention is again "the most common name in English":"This convention is intended to amplify on the generic "use the most common name in English" rule, and to cover the cases of extreme ambiguity and obscure personages." Therefore, the first rule is "the most common name in English", and then comes "the shortest name". Now, what's most common in English scholarship and literature for this person: "Julian the Apostate" or "Julian"?--Yannismarou (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Google Scholar, for the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian", yields 2,700 results. Subtracting 171 occurences of the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian the Apostate", we have approximately 2,530 occurences of "the Emperor Julian" without mention of the "Apostate" epithet. On the other hand, the exact phrase "Julian the Apostate" yields 2,810 results. The difference, you must admit, is small. Thus, Julian is the shortest unambiguous name, while at the same time quite a bit common in scholarly research too. Thus, "the Apostate" is an unnecessary addition to the title. Druworos (talk) 17:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Also note my reply to Carl.bunderson, repeated here for convenience: while "Julian the Apostate" outnumbers "the Emperor Julian" by about 300, note that "Julian the Apostate" exhausts all uses of "Julian the Apostate", whereas "the Emperor Julian" does not exhaust all uses of "Julian". In fact, "Julian" (without any other qualifier) is bound to also occur in the literature. We cannot count the exact number, but you can bet it's more than 300. So the total uses of "Julian" are likely to outnumber "Julian the Apostate". Druworos (talk) 21:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose He is most commonly known in English as "Julian the Apostate". We are to name person's articles by their "most common name"; this is Julian the Apostate, not Julian. "The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers..." People looking for Julian the Apostate will overwhelmingly type in Julian the Apostate, not Julian or Julian (Roman Emperor). Dru, your efforts are in contravention of stated policy: "Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another. If an article name has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should remain. Especially when there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail." You are trying to change the article's name, to anything but Julian the Apostate, because you dislike calling him an apostate. That is not a good reason to move the page. Policy clearly states we are not to edit [this necessarily includes page moves] for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another [another name, not another controversial name]. All discussion of moving this page should be sacked, until such time that it is demonstrable that another name is more commonly used than is "Julian the Apostate". Carl.bunderson (talk) 17:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Please see the count on Google Scholar. "Julian the Apostate": 2,810 results, "the Emperor Julian" (having taken care to exclude occurences of "Apostate"): 2,530 results. Scholars are split evenly, and we should use the shortest name, as per policy. Apostate is an unnecessary addition to the title. Also, people typing in Julian the Apostate will naturally be redirected to Julian. Druworos (talk) 18:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I saw the count on GScholar. You wish to call the page "Julian", not "the Emperor Julian". Moreover, "the apostate" still has a strict majority, and by a greater margin than by which several presidential contents have been won. The shortest unambiguous name is "Julian the Apostate", not "Julian". And no shit, people will be redirected from Julian, the point is that most people will be typing "Julian the Apostate", not "Julian", and to avoid rdr, it should be kept where it is. Also, you have no response to my charge that you are in contravention of policy in moving the page, seeing as you how are in contravention of stated policy. Your motivation is simply to get rid of a name you dislike because of its connotations. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Please respond to my arguments, not my motivations, which you have no way of knowing. Also, I feel no need to defend myself against your accusations, as I am not on trial here. The count is evenly split, as is plain for all to see. Also, I've already noted that I'm not against Julian (Emperor), but do find it unnecessary, as per the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles. The current title is against the naming conventions, and there is no way around this. Druworos (talk) 18:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Also, I searched for the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian" rather than "Julian", because searching for "Julian" would be, errm, pointless? Druworos (talk) 18:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I have responded to your arguments, and your motivations are relevant as well, as per the cited policy. Motivations can be surmised from words and actions, and if I am wrong about what I have supposed, you are free to correct me. It is obvious that you want the article named anything but "Julian the Apostate", whatever your motivation for that may be. The count is at best in a vague sense evenly split, with "Julian the Apostate" maintaining a clear majority. Julian shows two other emperor Julians, so Julian (Emperor) seems untenable. The current title is no against the naming conventions, there is absolutely no consensus for that position. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Julian (Emperor, 360-363) or Claudius Julianus, as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans). Druworos (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
From the same page: "The "most common" rule always trumps". The most common rule plainly leads us to "Julian the Apostate". The things you have suggested are not so much bad, as they are unnecessary, and policy is clearly against moving pages without a darn good reason. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
From the same sentence: The "most common" rule always trumps, so for instance we use Livy instead of Titus Livius, and Germanicus instead of Germanicus Julius Caesar.. Examples are of English vs. Latin form, and agnomen vs. full name. You are arbitrarily expanding this to include nicknames. Furthermore, "Julian the Apostate" and "the Emperor Julian" are fairly evenly split in frequency. Druworos (talk) 19:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Just because the examples are the English v. Latin form, that doesn't mean the most common rule applies only to English v. Latin forms. The original policy, from Wikipedia:Naming conventions, points us toward 'Julian the Apostate'. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
And yes, searching for "Julian" would have been pointless, I didn't mean to suggest you didn't know that; it was a bit of a cheap shot on my part, I'm sorry. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
And you are in violation of WP:Good faith by assuming that everyone who disagrees with you are pushing an agenda. What is your motivation for clinging on to the apostate epithet, in spite of scholarship clearly using other names for this particular emperor with nearly equal frequency?·Maunus· ·ƛ· 18:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I am hardly in violation of good faith policy. I've extended Dru a great deal of kindness and consideration, seeing as how he has made good arguments, in response to my response to your ill-conceived comment about a lack of non-Christian use of 'apostate'. I am simply calling a duck a duck, which is not violation of good faith. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I cling to the apostate epithet because it is most commonly used; "nearly equal frequency" does not cut it--this is neither horseshoes nor hand-grenades. No matter how it is parsed, "Julian the Apostate" is the shortest unambigious title. "Julian" is unsuitable, as there are many Julians with WP articles. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones. Druworos (talk) 18:52, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Again, ""The "most common" rule always trumps". Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Again, The "most common" rule always trumps, so for instance we use Livy instead of Titus Livius, and Germanicus instead of Germanicus Julius Caesar.. Examples are of English vs. Latin form, and agnomen vs. full name. You are arbitrarily expanding this to include nicknames. Furthermore, "Julian the Apostate" and "the Emperor Julian" are fairly evenly split in frequency. Druworos (talk) 19:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Again, lol, the expansion to include nicknames is not arbitrary. It reflects a contextual reading of the "most common" rule from its home, Wikipedia:Naming conventions, rather than restricting it to Anglicized v. Latin names, as you are trying to read it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Moreover, see what you wrote not a day ago, on this very page: "I realise (and agree) that there is no way, while keeping with current policy, that we could use anything other that some form of Julian the Apostate as the title." All you've done is search out further policy, and try to use it to support your pov. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I was waiting for this to come up. Frakly, I had not read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans) at the time, and just as importantly, I hadn't consulted Google Scholar on the actual ratio of "Julian the Apostate" vis. "the Emperor Julian". In light of the above, my oppinion has changed. Wonderful thing, changing your mind in light of evidence. Druworos (talk) 18:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Another point: Julian is already a dab page. Do you want to move what is now Julian to Julian (disambiguation, so that you can put Julian the Apostate at Julian? That is a a lot of unnecessary, and frankly silly, page moving just to satisfy persons who don't like that he is widely known as 'the Apostate'. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Moving Julian to Julian (disambiguation) is about 10 minutes work. Druworos (talk) 18:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok then, I can re-phrase: "That is unnecessary, and frankly silly, page moving just to satisfy person who don't like taht he is widely known as 'the Apostate'. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Wonderfully enough, Julian (disambiguation) already redirects to Julian. lol. Druworos (talk) 18:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, neither of us shall be able to convince the other, so further argumentation is probably pointless at this point. I suggest we leave this be, and let others decide who makes the best case. Druworos (talk) 19:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
You make a good case for places it can go if we were to move it, but I fundamentally disagree about moving it. There is no good case for moving the page. It seems that most who want to move it are motivated by something of an anti-Christian pov, or, like you, I think, by a desire to move away from a (possibly) inaccurate name. But neither of these are reasons to move the page. That is why I think motivation is important in examining one's position. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, it just occured to me, thanks to Akhileus's line of argumentation (kudos!) that while "Julian the Apostate" outnumbers "the Emperor Julian" by about 300, note that "Julian the Apostate" exhausts all uses of "Julian the Apostate", whereas "the Emperor Julian" does not exhaust all uses of "Julian". In fact, "Julian" (without any other qualifier) is bound to also occur in the literature. We cannot count the exact number, but you can bet it's more than 300. So the total uses of "Julian" are likely to outnumber "Julian the Apostate". Cheers! Druworos (talk) 21:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose for three reasons. First, "Julian" is ambiguous and does not clearly refer to this Julian. Second, "Julian the Apostate" is the most common name for this Julian in English-language sources - yes, it does express a Christian POV, but it's our job to record reality, even if imbued with Christianity, not to create a new reality. Third, we just had a poll that found significant support for the present title. Biruitorul Talk 20:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
As for the first reason, the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles. As for the second, "Julian the Apostate" as opposed to "the Emperor Julian" has a marginal lead, see above. As for the third, this proposal is under an entirely different rationale. Druworos (talk) 20:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Also note my reply to Carl.bunderson, repeated here for convenience: while "Julian the Apostate" outnumbers "the Emperor Julian" by about 300, note that "Julian the Apostate" exhausts all uses of "Julian the Apostate", whereas "the Emperor Julian" does not exhaust all uses of "Julian". In fact, "Julian" (without any other qualifier) is bound to also occur in the literature. We cannot count the exact number, but you can bet it's more than 300. So the total uses of "Julian" are likely to outnumber "Julian the Apostate". Druworos (talk) 21:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Frankly, I think that a move request started so soon after the old discussion closed should be invalid, and borders on disruptive editing. I had not even realized that there was a new move request; I have this page watchlisted, but from the entries on my watchlist it looked like discussion was continuing on the old proposal. I have contacted everyone who participated in the old discussion, except for those who have already posted here, without regard to whether they supported or opposed the previous proposal.

Yannismarrou has already stated the problem with the nominator's rationale. "According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), the usual names of emperors always 'own' those articles..." In this guideline, "usual name" is simply a restatement of WP:NAME's "most common name in English" standard. We've seen, over and over again, that the scholarly literature uses "Julian the Apostate" more frequently than any alternative that's been proposed in these incessant attempts to move the page.

Druworos' Google results tell us very little that's useful here--his search was for "the Emperor Julian", but that's not the proposed new title! The proposal is to move the page to "Julian", and a Google scholar search for plain "Julian", limited to social sciences/humanities results, gets this list of results--in the first page of results I get from that search, there's nothing about the emperor. At the very least, "Julian" is an ambiguous title. "Julian the Apostate" is not ambiguous, and as we've seen it's the most common name for this emperor. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

As previously pointed out, this proposal has a thoroughly different argumentation from the previous one (which I incidentally opposed). When you search for "Julian", you will obviously get loads of irrelevant results, namely every author whose first name is, errrmmm, Julian. However, all these people yield to the Emperor as per the usual names of emperors always 'own' those articles. In scholarly use, "Julian" is almost evenly distributed with "Julian the Apostate", thus making "the Apostate" an unnecessary addition that needlessly lengthens the title. Therefore, it should be removed. Druworos (talk) 20:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Note: "Julian" is likely to outnumber "Julian the Apostate". See my reply to Carl.bunderson, repeated here: while "Julian the Apostate" outnumbers "the Emperor Julian" by about 300, note that "Julian the Apostate" exhausts all uses of "Julian the Apostate", whereas "the Emperor Julian" does not exhaust all uses of "Julian". In fact, "Julian" (without any other qualifier) is bound to also occur in the literature. We cannot count the exact number, but you can bet it's more than 300. So the total uses of "Julian" are likely to outnumber "Julian the Apostate". Druworos (talk) 21:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Support - As per above Thegreyanomaly (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I have contacted everyone who participated in the old discussion, except for those who have already posted here, without regard to whether they supported or opposed the previous proposal. forgot me... Thegreyanomaly (talk) 20:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
My apologies, that was unintentional. I thought I had posted on your talk page, actually. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I will not yet oppose it; this is the second most common way to refer to Julian, and the difference may not be significant. If the Emperor were the primary meaning of Julian, I would be tempted to ignore the POV-pushing and bad faith of its advocates; they do not matter to the encyclopedia. But the other Julian X pages should be consulted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Anderson, what do you think of Dru's proposals of Julian (Emperor, 360-363) or Claudius Julianus? Hmm or we could do Claudius Iulianus :P. But seriously, I think those are preferable to Julian simply due to its ambiguity. Thoughts? Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
While the comment wasn't addressed at me, let me quote, again, the naming conventions: the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones. Druworos (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Are you opposing the things you just suggested? Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I am supporting them as opposed to the current title (as more in keeping with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans)), but opposing them in relation to Julian, as i believe Julian is best in accordance with said naming conventions. Druworos (talk) 22:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
No, thanks. Who calls our subject Claudius Julianus? And parenthetical dabs should be avoided when, as here, there is a clear, common, and unambiguous name available. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
The shortest unambiguous name being Julian. Druworos (talk) 07:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
That is ambiguous; most obviously, with Julian of Norwich and Count Julian; but it may be unambiguous enough for us. If so, there are two clear, common, and unambiguous names available, and parenthetical disambiguation is even less desirable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I just want to point out two things: a) this proposal does not call for a parenthetical disambiguation, I was only mentioning it as a possible alternative, and b) Flavius Claudius Julianus is the only one likely to be mentioned as "Julian", with no other qualifiers (e.g. of Norwich). Druworos (talk) 20:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I was replying to Carl's question, not the present proposal. I think your (b) patently false; both Julian of Norwich and Count Julian are called Julian; although the Emperor may be so more often. This is why I have not yet opposed; although this persistent argument with every oppose may yet stir me to do so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for not directly opposing. As for your concern, I can only cite Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans): the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones (emphasis added). As per the above, all Julians yield to the Emperor. Obviously, there will be a link on the page to Julian (disambiguation) (sorry if that sounded patronising, that wasn't my intent). Druworos (talk) 22:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose There are two scholarly biographies of this individual published within the past five years. Both of them refer to him as "Julian the Apostate": Shaun Tougher's Julian the Apostate and Adrian Murdoch's The Last Pagan: Julian the Apostate and the Death of the Ancient World. This requested move, coming only a day after the closure of another, is yet another attempt to have Wikipedia change scholarship rather than be a summary of it. I suggest to the promoters of this name change that they go and write several books about the individual and get other scholars to change the way he is commonly named; then they can come back to Wikipedia and suggest a move. Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be delighted to write a book on Julian, however, chances are, I'll never get around to it. Even if I did write such a book, it'd prolly not count as scholarly work, though. Research, however, does not consist only of biographies, nor, for that matter, only of books. At any rate, I repeat the results from Google Scholar (which takes account of all scholarly publications): the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian" (not counting occurences of the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian the Apostate") occurs 2,529 times. The exact phrase "Julian the Apostate" occurs 2,812 times. It should also be noted that while the exact phrase "Julian the Apostate" exhausts, obviously, all occurences of "Julian the Apostate", the exact phrase "the Emperor Julian" does not exhaust all occurences of "Julian". In fact, "Julian", without being preceded by "the Emperor", is likely to occur quite a few times in the literature. The exact number cannot be counted (except manually). However, it is likely there are at least 300 occurences, thus putting "Julian" ahead of "Julian the Apostate". Druworos (talk) 22:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Naming conventions were invoked to reject the proposed compromises, such as "Julian (the Apostate)". The naming convention for Roman emperors calls for the simple "Julian". JamesMLane t c 23:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Neither Julian nor Julian (Emperor) are unambiguous. There was more than 1 emperor named Julian. There is no ambiguity when using Julian the apostate, and it is apparently the most commonly used name for this Emperor Julian. DigitalC (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Please note that the other "Emperor Julian" is commonly called Didius Julianus. Consult the List of Roman Emperors or the article on him to verify this. The only Emperor commonly referred to by the English form Julian is the subject of this article. Druworos (talk) 07:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: (1) "Julian the Apostate" is losing momentum in modern storiography and is used only in hagiologies or highly-biased texts, (2) Julian was the only "emperor" that I am aware of. --Sjappé (talk) 23:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
    • The first claim is false. Half the sources for this article use Julian the Apostate in their titles. Please read the debate (in this case Noel's comment) before adding to it.
    • Emperors only trump other Roman names; many of the competing claimants are not Roman. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Please note the other half of the sources (at least according to Google Scholar) use "Julian". Non-Roman claimants (despite the obvious fact that they shouldn't matter - think of all the Brazilian soccer players known as Julius Caesar or Mark Anthony, lol) are in any event always known as Julian (of/the) X. The only one mononymically referred to as Julian is Flavius Claudius Julianus. Druworos (talk) 07:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
        • I wrote of the sources of this article, which do not appear to be "hagiologies or highly-biased texts". All I can say is that the other half don't use Apostate in their titles; some of them don't mention him in their titles at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
      • "The first claim is false. Half the sources for this article use Julian the Apostate in their titles." So what? I said that "Julian the Apostate" is losing momentum in modern storiography", I did not talk about this article. --Sjappé (talk) 21:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
  • No recommendation on Julian the Apostate versus Julian (emperor), but oppose Julian in favour of Julian the Apostate or Julian (emperor). The rule that "the usual names of emperors always 'own' those articles" is surely not intended to apply to names that are widely used for people other than ancient Romans; the examples given are described only as "generic names shared by many other Romans". Admittedly, the pages Claudius and Titus are about emperors, but on the other hand Gaius, Alexander, Philip and Victor are all about names, not Caligula, Alexander Severus, Philip the Arab and Flavius Victor. I think common sense suggests that the "ancient Romans" guideline doesn't allow emperors to disregard competitors who are not ancient Romans in "owning" article names. Even among names used only for ancient Romans, taking the "emperors always 'own'" guideline literally would mean redirecting Marius to Marcus Aurelius Marius, Tacitus to Marcus Claudius Tacitus, Procopius to Procopius (usurper), Nepos to Julius Nepos and Romulus to Romulus Augustulus. If all these redirects would be inappropriate, as I think they clearly are, then the case is even stronger for a name widely used for non-Romans. EALacey (talk) 08:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Note that no one else is likely to be referred to mononymically as "Julian", without adding "(of/the) X" (e.g. of Norwich). Druworos (talk) 20:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Please note the results from Google. Druworos (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose Not only is this the most common name, it is far-and-away the most common unambiguous name. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Please note the results from Google. Also, Julian is unambiguous in that no one else is likely to be referred to simply as "Julian". Druworos (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. Very strong oppose This was already proposed and failed, please don't just keep doing it till it passes. Julian the Apostate is his real name. If someone was called "John the Papist" I wouldn't be offended, it's ridiculous to be offended by this. Also, wikipedia doesn't care anyway if you feel offended.--Serviam (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
    1. I very strongly suggest you bother to read the proposal before voting. This proposal suggests a different move than the previous one, and uses entirely different arguments. Please note how I opposed the previous move. Furthermore, I know Wikipedia doesn't care if I am offended, therefore, nowhere in this proposal do you see the words "offended" and/or "pejorative". So please, read the proposal, then come back and vote on the actual proposal, not what you automatically assumed it to be. Druworos (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Support The only context on Earth where calling him "Apostate" makes sense is that of the Christian. this clearly violates NPOV. If this were an article about a Christian "saint" I could understand, if not accept, the presence of POV. It is irrelevant, to me at least, that thousands of Christian scholars have repeatedly titled him apostate. That was not his title at the time, and only the mean-spirited efforts of later (always Christian, and only Christian) scholars. "Apostate" is a negative term, and I truly am brought to tears to think that such a (relatively) great man is called by a bad name —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshNarins (talk • contribs) 02:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
    • I will admit that seeing Edward Gibbon called a Christian scholar is -er- novel; but, in general, how do you propose to demonstrate any such claim? Is, for example, Marion Giebel a Christian? How do you know? Or is this simply an act of faith? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:27, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
    • And I see there is poem by Nikos Kazantzakis called Julian the Apostate. Is this a Christian POV too? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. "Apostate" is heavily loaded with pejorative connotations. From a Christian perspective it describes the person as a sinner, i.e it is not just indicative of a change of state. The term is offensive to those who realise how the word has been used down through the ages. GoldenMeadows (talk) 15:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment I noticed that Dipa1965, Maunus, GoldenMeadows placed their support in the discussion section instead of this section, I believe this was a mistake, and I notified them. I will leave it to them to move their opinion by leaving this on their talk pages Thegreyanomaly (talk) 01:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose as previously observed, Julian the Apostate is the most common unambiguous version; "Julian" by itself is just not clear enough.--Aldux (talk) 22:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Support as per nominator.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Neither Philip nor Tacitus owns the Roman emperor's article. In this case, the MoS supports the contention that "Julian the Apostate" owns this article whatever other Julian the Apostate their may be, not the contention that this article ought to be Julian. Also, I would support a move request for Titus to take into account the book of the Bible and its namesake, which are probably more well-known and more well-studied, but I don't think it is necessary, so I would never propose it. Srnec (talk) 21:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Julian should be a dab page. I hardly see this as primary usage, whatever you think about Julian the Apostate needing a rename. 70.55.88.21 (talk) 04:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose'. His most common name i nEnglish in Julian the Apostate, I think that it should remain that way. Kyriakos (talk) 11:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Politically correct name change proposal. --Groggy Dice T | C 22:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Quite a different point altogether, that, I'm afraid. Druworos (talk) 12:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion (closed)

Any additional comments:
  • Down the ages there have been many people named Julian, some likely more notable to some people than a minor Roman emperor. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones, so we have Titus, Claudius, and Nero as articles on individuals, even though these are generic names shared by many other Romans. It is policy. At any rate, I'd be willing to settle for Julian (Roman Emperor). Druworos (talk) 11:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Note also, that in full accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ancient Romans), if people feel Julian to be ambiguous, we can also opt for Claudius Julianus, it being the shortest unambiguous name. Also note however, that this, according to the same source, mostly pertains to consuls and the such, and not emperors, as, like I mentioned, the usual names of emperors always "own" those articles, even for the less-well-known ones . Thus, the best way to go is Julian. Druworos (talk) 11:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
  • By the way, I realise other articles should't be taken as precedent, but I just though it interesting than in the List of Roman Emperors he is referred to as Julian. Druworos (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The usual name is either "Julian the Apostate" or "Julian", with a pretty even distribution, and "Julian" is the shortest unambiguous name. Druworos (talk) 20:52, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Your search was for"the emperor Julian". That says nothing about the distribution of "Julian", except that some qualifier is often felt to be needed--in other words, plain "Julian" is ambiguous. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually, if you must get pedantic, I can argue that "the Emperor Julian" yields 2,529 results, whereas "the Emperor Julian the Apostate" only 171, so "Julian" is by far more common than "Julian the Apostate". So please, let us not get pedantic. The results are there, and as Christ put it, let those who have eyes, see. Druworos (talk) 21:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
It's a bit late to complain about pedantry when you're pulling out Google Scholar results. The real problem here is sophistry--your claim that your search for "the emperor Julian" shows that "Julian" is more common than "Julian the Apostate" is nonsense. "The emperor Julian" is not the same phrase as "Julian", and you will get strikingly different results for each term. If it were possible to give this article the title the Emperor Julian, your results might be helpful, but that doesn't meet our naming conventions. If you want to claim that "Julian" is the most common name, you must establish how many sources call him simply "Julian", without qualification such as "the emperor Julian" or "Julian the Apostate". --Akhilleus (talk) 01:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I find it quite meaningfull that we have 2,529 occurences of "the Emperor Julian", as opposed to 171 of "the Emperor Julian the Apostate. Again, I let others decide on the significance. The results are plain for all to see. Druworos (talk) 07:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, the ones to first pull out Google Scholar results were supporting "Julian the Apostate" vis. "Julian of Rome" (as well they should). I did not notice you calling them pedants then. Druworos (talk) 07:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed this comment before. I happily admit that I've used Google Scholar to establish that "Julian the Apostate" is the most common name, and if you want to label that as an instance of pedantry, feel free. But note that I haven't called anyone a pedant (as far as I know, you're the first one to use that term)--I simply think that someone using Google Scholar results shouldn't complain about someone else being a pedant. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
With your 171 number, I am beginning to accept the charge of sophistry against you. You're playing with the search terms to give the appearance that Julian is more common than is Julian the Apostate. What precisely is your purpose in comparing "the emperor Julian" and "the emperor Julian the Apostate"? It is absolutely irrelevant to this discussion, and I suspect you know that. Carl.bunderson (talk) 15:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I am afraid it is not at all irrelevant. We can't directly compare "Julian" to "Julian the Apostate", for obvious reasons. We can compare them in a specific context which excludes other uses of "Julian" (and also reasonably excludes non-English results). The context where both "Julian" and "Julian the Apostate" are preceded by "the Emperor" is one such context. In such a context, "Julian" outnumbers "Julian the Apostate" 2,529 to 171. If you can suggest other appropriate contexts or search methods for having a straightforward comparison between "Julian" (as referring to Flavius Claudius Julianus) and "Julian the Apostate", please, feel free to suggest them. Druworos (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
It is entirely irrelevant. I don't have an alternative to suggest, but this one is ridiculous. We all know perfectly well that he is often called "Julian the Apostate", not "the Emperor Julian the Apostate". Results for that are low because, duh, no one calls him that. The only effective thing on the apostate side of his name to search for is "Julian the Apostate". Trying to give the 171 number significance, you know, is biasing things in your favour. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
He is also quite commonly referred to as, errrm, Julian, rather than "the Emperor Julian", I would assume. Druworos (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The implicit claim that WP:NCRN says we must use one-word names for Emperors is silly. We should use Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Julius Nepos and Romulus Augustulus just like everybody else. (The last, please note, is a derogatory nickname, almost certainly posthumous, and not self-identification, just as here.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Julian is perfectly unambiguous, as the other "Emperor Julian" is commonly referred to as Didius Julianus. Check the List of Roman Emperors, for instance. Also, other "Julians" are never known as "Julian", but rather as "Julian X", "Julian of X" or "Julian the X". "Julian" unambiguously refers to Flavius Claudius Julianus, and is used through half the body of scholarly research. Thus, "the Apostate" is an unnecessary addition. Druworos (talk) 07:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


  • Support both Julian and Julian (the Apostate). Despite my frustration from the discussion so far, I did the stupid move to return. Since there is a very strong argumentation derived from the rule of "the most common name", I am here to refute it via a (hopefully) proper use of the Google Scholar Search. Using the following terms, I think one gets a relatively accurate representation of the occurrences of "Julian" as emperor, without the "Apostate" cognomen vs the supposedly most common variant. The OR operators where used to remove the need for manual "screening" of occurrences of other Julians:
Julian emperor OR byzantine OR constantinople OR Constantius OR neoplatonism -"Julian the Apostate" -Didius → 28.700 occurrenses
"Julian the Apostate" → 2.830 occurrenses
Not a 100% precise search but yet a huge 10:1 ratio. You may also use the Google Scholar Advanced Search (see img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=googlescholarsearchyc4.png for a screenshot]): it will give identical results. ASSUMING I am correct (please comment on possible flaws in my search method), what I found above decisively moves the balance in favour of renaming. No that I am expecting anything to change; the opposers would immediately respond "yes, but Julian is more ambiguous, parentheses are superficial" and so on… Dipa1965 (talk) 19:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
    • I tried this search -- the 28,700 include a few thousand references to phrases such as "Julian, commonly known as the Apostate", that I consider essentially interchangable. This shows the limitations of Google searches for anything more than showing notability for AfD. Even if the search can be refined, one would have to do an extensive census of the results to determine what, if anything, it means. In my opinion, the question is more fundamental: Should Wikipedia censor historically-common surnames because they imply praise or blame? I would equally oppose changing Ethelred the Unready to Ethelred II of England and Charlemagne to Charles, son of Pippin, King of the Franks. Robert A.West (Talk) 19:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Per our present policy (which I, by the way, don't fully support), no, Wikipedia should not "censor" (though this is a poor phrasing) historically common surnames. However, as per the same policy, Wikipedia should use the shortest unambiguous name, in this case, Julian (as per my arguments above), a name which, incidentally, is deffinitely almost as common as Julian the Apostate (and possibly more common). Druworos (talk) 21:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Given that Julian is already a lengthy disambiguation page that includes three Roman Emperors, it can hardly be considered "unambiguous." Robert A.West (Talk) 23:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
      • The 28,700 search also includes, on its first page, a book on Bernard Shaw's middle plays, and a paper on Hawaiian vulcanism which happens to be on the Emperor seamounts and have a Julian P. Lowman as a co-author. Anything which cites that paper in full will also be a hit. (Also the English review of a German collection called Julian Apostata; the reviewer demonstrably uses "the Apostate" himself, but did not bother to in this context.) Since books on Julian himself will tend to score high, the rate of false positives should increase on later pages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Scanning thtough shows that this also has the endemic weakness of Scholar Google; it's not limited to hits in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the input. Indeed there are problems with any search but it is the only tool we have and it has been brought so often in all discussions. As for non-english titles, I did an extensive random testing of the results and I didn't notice but very few non-english titles. There were many translations from (usually) German. I think it is not impossible to screen out the irrelevant hits without resorting to manual handpicking. Even if you add more "-" terms like those you mentioned above (and a few more), the count is 19.000. It is drastically reduced to 12.400 if you add -pope (not fair at all) but it is not affected if you add -"pope Julian". So I think the count is well over 10.000. Even if you still don't trust the search because of the ambiguity of the name, search for the following : "Emperor Julian" OR "Julian the emperor" OR "Julian emperor" -"Julian-the-Apostate"
It gets 3060 occurrences. Are you still not convinced? As for the "also known as the Apostate", it does strengthen the reasoning of the supporters of Julian (the Apostate): it is the plain name with a clearly neutralized (the "also known as") suffix. Similar to the parentheses above Dipa1965 (talk) 22:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
No. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't expect to convince you on the validity of the 19.000 count but at least to admit that 3.060 is more than 2830. It doesn't need to prove anything else than what I said long ago : Julian the Apostate is gradually loosing ground but Wikipedia is dominated by traditionalists. No one is perfect. Dipa1965 (talk) 23:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
While you don't address me, I'll respond. While the Google methodology is evidence, it is far from despositive. It does not control for anything of importance. It excludes non-scholarly works, which are a valid part of English usage, and it is biassed towards very recent works: one should use a longer time scale for articles on classics than for, say, nanotechnology. Even if I were to grant the methodology, the quantities are equal to within a reasonable error bar. Robert A.West (Talk) 01:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Two points: a) I have been known to find hits in Greek (of all nations) journals published back in 1928 in Google Scholar searches. (Note: searches entirely irrelevant to Julian, but quite relevant to the field, namely dealing with the history of Athens) So maybe it is not all that biased to modern sources. Let alone the fact that modern usage does seem more significant... b) if you are willing to grant that "Julian" and "Julian the Apostate" are equal in usage, this immediately blows out of the water the argument that "Julian the Apostate" is more common. Therefore, Julian is equally common, unambiguous, and shorter (and thus a better suited title). Druworos (talk) 18:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
A veritable banquet to refute. At random:
  1. A term that points to a DAB page containing five rulers, eleven churchmen and two towns (any of which could be called "Julian" vel non) is not remotely "unambiguous". I would rather see this page called almost anything than just Julian.
  2. The probability of finding a work in Google Scholar goes down for publication dates within the last decade. The fact that it does not hit zero until 1928 or earlier does not change that.
  3. It is a mistake to discount older sources, since they are often more influential than more recent ones.
  4. I don't grant the equality, so reasoning from the assumption that I do is dubious at best.
  5. In any event, ties inure to the status quo. It doesn't matter whether the question is whether English usage has changed, or whether Wikipedia should act, a statistical tie supports a negative answer to each.
Given the long history of the term, I would require much evidence to convince me, and hasty Google searches are not going to do it. The current title is, at worst, not unreasonable and seems to be no likelihood of a consensus to move. Wikipedia is not a race, nor are decisions final. Why not give this idea a rest for a time? Robert A.West (Talk) 00:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Druworos does not seem to realise that if Julian unambiguously referred to the emperor he could compare it with any other name directly and he would not have to search for "the Emperor Julian". Srnec (talk) 21:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

So (by your own example) we could directly compare "Titus" to an alternative? I think not, yet here is this article on the Emperor Titus. Druworos (talk) 16:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Read my oppose vote above. I said I'd support a move proposal for the emperor Titus because the Pauline epistle and the one to whom it is addressed are at least as famous, probably moreso. Srnec (talk) 04:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
And yet, the Emperor owns the article, just as this one should. Druworos (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
What of Philip or Tacitus? They don't own their respective imperial articles. "Julian the Apostate" owns this article and any other apostate Julian will have to settle for a parenthetical disambiguator. Srnec (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Apostacy

Although Julian was baptized, his "apostasy" is debatable since his antipathy towards Christianity dated from an early age, and it is unlikely that he was ever a very sincere Christian.

Does this sentence have a source? I don't recall anyone (except Vidal) who claims to know that his antipathy dates from an early age, and I have no idea what sources they would be using; certainly he does not say so himself; his self-image is The Man Who Learned Better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

As attested in private letters between him and the rhetorician Libanius, Julian had Christianity forced on him as a child by his cousin Constantius II, who was a zealous Arian Christian and would not have tolerated a pagan relative. "Reacting violently against the Christian teaching that he had received in a lonely and miserable childhood," A.H.M. Jones observes, "he had developed a passionate interest in the art, literature and mythology of Greece and had grown to detest the new religion which condemned all he loved as pernicious vanity"


Jones seems to more or less support Christianity was forced on him. Though I'll agree a source on those private letters to Libanius would be nice. Even though his "antipathy" may not actually date from the age of, say, seven, the very fact he was forced into the religion is good enough ground to make his apostasy debatable (though this is just my personal oppinion, and yes, a source would be needed). Druworos (talk) 23:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a misreading. I am surprised that someone interested in this subject should not have known converts who react violently, often in their late teens, against teachings they have hitherto followed unhappily but obediently; so here. Wright has three letters from Julian to Libanius:52, 53, and 58, and notes that other editors say letter 5 is to Libanius; none of these discuss Julian's youth or his faith. Libanius's funeral oration (§12) says that "a wicked sophist" [Hecebolius, who had spoken ill of the gods] brought Julian up with such notions about the gods, and that Julian "was suffering the incompetence in rhetoric because of the war waged against the altars by his teacher." Neither this nor Jones say that he was not a sincere Christian (until after 352, which is another question) but that he was not a happy one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, I am entirely unaware of the letters, so if what is in the article is a misreading, please fix it (especially as what is presently in the article seems unreferenced). Also I am aware Jones nowhere says he was not a sincere Christian, but an unhappy one. As for whether someone forced into a religion later leaving it can be qualified as apostacy, as noted, that is only my personal oppinion, and some sort of proper reference should be given if it is to be included in the article. Druworos (talk) 09:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I do know of such people as you mention (myself being a case in hand). I am not disputing Julian was (as far as we can know) a sincere enough Christian. I am only arguing that since he was forced into the religion without giving any form of real consent at the age of seven, and left it as soon as he reached the age of twenty (at about the age of majority in developed nations nowadays), I (strictly personally) feel his is not a clear-cut case of apostasy (not in the same as it was apostasy for Paul to leave Judaism or Augustine to leave Manichaeism, at least). But I repeat that this is only a personal view, and before something of the sort can be in the article, we need a proper source for it. Druworos (talk) 09:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Most Christians (Baptists excluded) are "forced into Christianity" at about three days. So? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
No arguments there ;) Druworos (talk) 12:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Though since this seems destined to degenerate into a religious discussion, I'd care to point out that scare-quotes are not at all appropriate around forced into Christianity, unless you actually believe minors of any age are in a position to give meaningful consent on the matter. Statutory rape, is what it is. Druworos (talk) 12:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
'Twarn't a scare quote; it was a quote: to make clear I hadn't invented the phrase. Adoption would be a less strident metaphor; most religions, including classical paganism, have rituals involving the newborn at an age before speech, much less rational volition; in Judaism, it's eight days; I forget offhand the age at which Roman children were named and presented to the lares. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
To be perfectly clear on this point, I personally oppose pretty much all religions, I just oppose some more than others. Also, unless I am mistaken, baptising infants was not all that common in early Christian communities, until Theodosius (unless I'm mistaken) made it summarily obligatory for every infant, regardless of its parents volition, let alone its own. Druworos (talk) 18:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyhow, the more significant point is, please, if you havent already done so, edit the part about the letters to Libanius to reflect scholarship (I'd do it myself but I do trust you to do a far better job of it). If you have already done so, disregard this. :D Druworos (talk) 12:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Julian became known as "the Apostate"[1] because he converted from Christianity to the worship of the traditional gods; he "Reacting violently against the Christian teaching that he had received in a lonely and miserable childhood," A.H.M. Jones observes, "he had developed a passionate interest in the art, literature and mythology of Greece and had grown to detest the new religion which condemned all he loved as pernicious vanity. He was of a strongly religious temperament, and found solace in the pantheistic mysticism which contemporary Neoplatonist philosophers taught."<:ref name="Mysticism">Jones, A. H. M., The Later Roman Empire, 284-602: A Social, Economic and Administrative Survey, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, 1986, p. 120.</ref> After his conversion to Hellenism he devoted his life to protecting and restoring the fame and security of this tradition.

This has two subjects: Julian's early life, which we treat elsewhere, and the nature of his personal religious beliefs, which is more controversial than we admit. Neither belong in an account of his legislation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The last sentence does seem to establish a context though. Otherwise agreed. Druworos (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Edits on 22 July

"He also forced the Christian church to return the riches, or fines equalling them, looted from the pagan temples[2] after the Christian religion was made legitimate by Constantine, and non-Christians brutally persecuted.[3]"

Ok, I see that the last bit (and non-Christians brutally persecuted) is wrong and has to go. Why did you remove the rest of it though? (assuming the reference to Gibbon is accurate, that is) Druworos (talk) 18:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Because I don't think it's defensible. Tougher and Browning don't say Julian restored looting, which would have been untraceable, but confiscations, conducted by Constantine and Constantius II as the Government. If you can find the quotation from Gibbon, even the first few words, I will see what he says; but it is likely that his words have been taken for more than he meant to assert, and I would still prefer the modern historians of Late Antiquity; they may be pygmies, but they are standing on his (and Mommsen's) shoulders. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It would appear to be this sentence from chapter XXIII: The most effectual instrument of oppression with which they were armed was the law that obliged the Christians to make full and ample satisfaction for the temples which they had destroyed under the preceding reign. That's not the same thing; this means mostly that Constantius had closed pagan temples and given them to the bishops, who built churches. Looting is neither neutral nor (with occasional exceptions) accurate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
While I think 'loot' can be neutral and objective, I agree (having looked it up myself) that Gibbon doesn't mention looting, hence, no more arguments from me. :D Druworos (talk) 21:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/en/CH310/CH310_T_13.html
  2. ^ Gibbon, Edward, The Story Of The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Penguin Classics, London, 2000, p. 244. "
  3. ^ Codex Theodosianus, xvi.10.6.
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