Talk:ELAM (Cyprus)

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Is ELAM a neofascist party[edit]

ELAM party's ideology is neofascist. --191.115.12.89 (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Elam cannot under any circumstances be regarded as a neo-fascist party - so more as the Cyprus communist party may be regarded as a leftist fascist party. The party was founded in 2008, and has legally received its credentials, it is a party of 23,165 voters, a member of the Cyprus Parliament and under the Cyprus Constitution a legal political party.

Cyprus was never a nazi colony and moreover, ELAM holds primordial nationalist culture with every sense of the word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.228.204.17 (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I share your sentiment. But on Wikipedia it is not sentiment which decides, but verifiable sources. The academic literature surrounding ELAM describes it as ultranationalism and places it on the far-right of the political spectrum. It does not describe it however as a neo-fascist party. Therefore, and unless the literature changes and a new consensus is reached, the party should not be described as neo-fascist and no edits should be made to alter basic info on the page towards that end. Tco03displays (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ELAM praises the Hellenic prime minister Ioannis Metaxas, who was associated with Greek fascism, as shown in its own website article.
https://elamcy.com/afieroma-ioannis-metaksas-1871-1941-ekeinos-pou-eipe-to-ochi/ -- Hu753 (talk) 10:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ioannis Metaxas did lead Greece to victory against the Italians in WW2 so thats a very low bar to have. This issue can easily be solved by simply looking at the partys manifesto and judging it by that, anything else is hearsay and old news. ShovelandSpade (talk) 17:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stop Adding an Endless List of Positions in the infobox Please[edit]

This occasionally happens on this page. Please do not add an endless list of positions in the infobox, especially if there are no verifiable, reliable sources accompanying them. At present, both the stated position and the stated ideology are backed by verifiable, peer-reviewed academic sources. Tco03displays (talk) 19:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Straw man arguments such as "far-right" and "ultranationalist"...[edit]

sound more like marxist, left-wing smear rather than objective neutrality. 93.206.49.8 (talk) 17:28, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

you are wrong Braganza (talk) 09:39, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"fascist"? Seriously?[edit]

Has this article been written by a far-left communist? 2003:DA:C711:6700:D173:5E45:B6E:F024 (talk) 23:31, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

is there any reason to think otherwise Braganza (talk) 08:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and because of this it has been removed, remember that wiki is not exempt from litigation and making false or inflamitory accusations against organisations or people can cause problems. ShovelandSpade (talk) 07:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality template[edit]

Added the template due to the quite obvious pov problem this article has including but not limited to labelling it a fascist organisation when the party has not only denied these allegations but there is nothing in their manifesto that appears to be fascismic, there is also too much empahsis on the allegations of fascism as opossed to the partys involvement in politics, bills introduced, involvement in parliament etc. Until these issues are fixed I believe the template is rightfully there. ShovelandSpade (talk) 19:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was founded as the local branch of Golden Dawn (they were even linked on their homepage until 2020, just a few months before the dissolution of XA)
they had no leadership change, nor change in Name nor logo (the only thing which appearently changed in the removal of the Olive wreath which was directly ripped from XA but still appears at Times). To the point that they deny it: the Spartans, National Party – Greeks & Republika also deny to be fascists this does not necessarily that they aren't, a clear shift has to be prooven by sources who state they they are not fascists anymore
I don't see any reason to assume an actual change like with Jobbik Braganza (talk) 18:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well for one party policy and peoples personal opinions can change without leadership necessarily stepping down, for two, as ive previously stated above, the best way to judge these cases is by looking at what the parties policies and manifestos are today, as yes, ELAM in fact cut ties with GD in 2020 and since then as it seems at least, the party has shifted more to the hardline conservative as opossed to fascismic line. ShovelandSpade (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it happened almost over night though, that's the thing on mainland Greece almost the same happened with new parties succeeding XA without claiming to be fascist
if you can provide third-party sources, why not? but these have to exist first Braganza (talk) 19:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean most third party sources refer to the party as far right not really fascist anymore but the issue is when I remove the fascism claim it gets reverted. ShovelandSpade (talk) 09:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
far-right and fascist are not exclusive, if you can provide third party sources stating ELAM is NOT fascist, fine Braganza (talk) 14:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You cant confirm a negative, I can give third party sources that state theyre far right, but as I said, I did that prior and it was reverted by someone who has a history of disruptive editing by the looks of it. ShovelandSpade (talk) 17:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you CAN confirm the negative, there are plenty sources proofing the transformation of Jobbik for example and like i said far-right and fascist are NOT exclusive Braganza (talk) 17:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, put it this way, if youre having a conversation about another political party, since you mention Greece a lot ill assume you have a clue about their parties, take New Democracy, there are sources saying its right wing or liberal right, but nobody outright says "ND is not a fascist party", it sort of goes without saying, not saying something, doesnt then mean that its true as in this case, anyways ive sent you 3 sources for you to look at, get back to me when you can and yes I know fascist and far right are not mutually exclusive. ShovelandSpade (talk) 17:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
that's a thing there ARE sources for ELAM being fascist, they might be outdated but still exist unlike ND Braganza (talk) 17:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As to my reply, I think this article should be fine
https://theconversation.com/cyprus-what-is-elam-the-far-right-nationalist-party-seeking-success-after-the-demise-of-golden-dawn-165639
Other articles that claim far right but not fascist:
https://in-cyprus.philenews.com/local/far-right-elam-rising-as-centre-right-parties-struggle/
https://www.politico.eu/article/elam-cyprus-elections-greek-turkish-golden-dawn-vote-a-worrying-footnote-for-reunification-talks/ ShovelandSpade (talk) 17:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) "apparently for legal reasons" (aka not get banned)
2) the title already...
3) The Greek-Cypriot nationalist ELAM (National Popular Front) party, which has links to Greece’s neo-fascist Golden Dawn and has been accused of racism against Turkish Cypriots, won two seats in the House of Representatives in Nicosia. Braganza (talk) 17:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) Thats OR and is not allowed on wikipedia
2) Racism isnt fascism and claims unless proven in court dont stand
So both points are moot ShovelandSpade (talk) 17:56, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Elam has made sure in recent years to distance itself from Golden Dawn"
"It’s evident that Elam is in the process of becoming a lighter, less aggressive version of Golden Dawn""The party has started working cooperatively in the parliament too, voting recently in support of the government’s budget proposals and providing key support in the vote for a speaker, helping the government avoid a fresh vote if its candidate did not get through."
"But Elam has clearly learned from Golden Dawn’s mistakes and is aiming to become a more mature version of its former sister party"
This whole article is enough to prove my claim, cherry picking old news simply makes my point and this article is very clear in stating that ELAM no longer has ties to GD. ShovelandSpade (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) you are literally trying to do this: "looking at what the parties policies and manifestos are today"
2) yeah but it combination with the first part it is
3) "a more more mature version of its former sister party" implies that they are still fascist just trying to hide it, not out of the ordinary for neofascist parties. Parties like NPD never praise Hitler, this doesn't make them less fascist and like i said Spartans are seen as fascist too despite trying to hide it too Braganza (talk) 18:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it does not youre clearly trying to draw lines where they dont exist, if youre going to outright refute evidence and twist words that is your perrogative, that article had ample opportunities to say theyre still fascismic but they have quite literally said the opossite. So long as evidence like this is being denied there is no chance those templates can be removed. ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yes look at party manifestos today because who better to get a political parties view than from the political party themselves? I dont see how this is confusing to you, also yes, if someone is denying being a fascist, cut ties with a fascist party and holds no fascismic views, I hate to break it to you but, maybe theyre not fascists? ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this is OR but even if we look at their program we must look at the old program too if there are any differences
and btw back it 2012 ELAM denied being fascist, so they were never fascist to begin with? and we shouldn't forget that the ban of XA was foreseeable in 2020 and nothing unexpected Braganza (talk) 18:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also accusing someone of trying to "hide" something, again, unfortunately for you is not a criteria on wikipedia. ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also you seem to have skipped this article, https://in-cyprus.philenews.com/local/far-right-elam-rising-as-centre-right-parties-struggle/ which makes no mention of the fascism word for the whole article so what is your issue here? ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
far-right doesnt contradict fascism, if we go by this many fascist parties would be just far-right Braganza (talk) 18:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Far right and fascist arent the same thing partially because there is no actual definition of far right its a spectrum in a spectrum, assuming you have nothing else to rebute my claim, the fascist gig is being removed. ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i can say literally the same based on this
if the best you can do is to hold up some stalemate based on two things: ELAM denying being fascist & the few English-langugage latest news outlets calling them "far-right" without elaborating in which way (neofascism or right-wing populism with some still very well linking them to XA and calling out their motives behind their disassociation rather than a change of heart), you can't just speculate that they might not be fascist Braganza (talk) 18:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not speculation its fact, you chose to play with words thats on you not me. Anyways ive moved it from the infobox and added it in the main article about these allegations so I dont see why you should have a problem. ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the status quo (pre-2020) should have the last say, not some assumptions based on thing not said in media and ambiguous labels Braganza (talk) 19:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
we probably need a third party like @ValenciaThunderbolt: Braganza (talk) 19:44, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, the accusation is still there just not in the infobox. You can't force a party into being something you want it to be and as such has no place in the infobox of the party. It's hypocritical to do that and in the same infobox have "Metaxism" and as a reference use the party itself. So we listen to the party where we want and don't listen where we don't want?
The fairest thing in this case is to have it outside the infobox and leave it as a claim and referenced as I've done. ShovelandSpade (talk) 06:03, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i didn't add it, so i don't care Braganza (talk) 06:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am the one who added the references to Metaxism. One may argue over whether ELAM and/or Metaxism are fascist, but there is no denying ELAM's support for Metaxism, especially when the confirming source is ELAM itself. Hu753 (talk) 07:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know my point is that people are using double standards when trying to make their case, you can't take ELAMs word for metaxism and then not take their word for it when it gets to fascism, it's hypocritical. I agree metaxism should be there since as you said, the party itself says it. ShovelandSpade (talk) 09:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
but Metaxism is a type of fascism?
so Metaxism should be allowed but (neo-)fascism not? Braganza (talk) 12:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You do know Metaxas was the leader that led Greece to victory against the Italians in WW2 right? He is celebrated not only officially but by most the Greek and Cypriot Greek populations, does that mean were all fascists? Cause thats what youre dumbing this down to. Anyways you continuing to whine is useless, ive kept it in the article just not in the infobox, I dont see what your problem is. ShovelandSpade (talk) 14:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
but not everyone is supporting his ideology Braganza (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Im not gonna get boggled down in another fruitless debate, the fascist claim is still in the article just not in the infobox, are you satisfied with that? ShovelandSpade (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
no Braganza (talk) 15:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is that any better, youre basically saying "Theyre not fascists but we still call them that" thats exactly why it shouldnt be in the infobox, this was exactly my orignal point, its disputed, you dont put disputed information on the infobox. Your issue seems to be that you want it in the infobox for some reason. ShovelandSpade (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
claiming not to be fascist doesn't mean they aren't Braganza (talk) 10:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Counterproposal:

National Popular Front
Εθνικό Λαϊκό Μέτωπο
AbbreviationELAM
ΕΛΑΜ
LeaderChristos Christou
Founded2008
HeadquartersNicosia, Cyprus
Youth wingYouth Front
Women's wingWomen's Front
Ideology
Political positionFar-right[7][8]
European affiliationEuropean Conservatives and Reformists Party (cooperation)
Colours  Black   Blue   White
House of Representatives
3 / 56
European Parliament
0 / 6
Municipal Councils
7 / 478
Party flag
Website
www.elamcy.com
  1. ^ ELAM cut ties to Golden Dawn and denied being fascist [insert citations] (see #Previous connections with Golden Dawn) but is still called neo-fascist.[5]

Braganza (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This compromise seems reasonable enough, especially if compared to another relevant controversy over fascist-related labels (FdI), where at least the party leader condemned fascism publicly (despite controversial members still being in the party). In this case ELAM cutting ties with GD isn't sufficient to infer anything about ELAM itself. My only addition to the conversation would be that imho an essential component of fascism (or fascism-derived ideologies) is a tendency to ignore, mock or even try to subvert democratic processes, and labeling as fascist parties that do not show those behaviors should be done with caution. Fm3dici97 (talk) 10:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with Braganza's proposal. However, the party's denial counts for nothing. That element shouldn't be in the lead or the infobox. Plenty of groups deny claims of extremist ideologies regardless of whether or not they are true. We go by what reliable third-party sources state over organisations self-descriptions. Helper201 (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most third party sources no longer state that theyre fascists so. Let me put it another way, can you show me in the parties manifesto where there is the element of fascism? The manifesto is there for everyone to see, and generally with sourcing id agree however calling people fascists when they quite clearly aren't is actually borderline slander no matter how sourced you think it is. As I said, claims can remain in the article not infobox. ShovelandSpade (talk) 03:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still dont see why you guys want it in the infobox so bad when its in the article anyways. ShovelandSpade (talk) 03:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A practical example of this is Marios Pelekanos' recent move to ELAM from DHSY, has Marios Pelekanos suddenly brcome a fascist even though nobody has even remotely made such a claim? Obviously not. ShovelandSpade (talk) 04:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i can't say for sure for DISY but ND has a hard-right-wing faction Braganza (talk) 04:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Idk much about ND but even so, that doesnt make ND a fascist party. With ELAM most of the issue stems from Christos Christous university years and when he was the bodyguard of Michailakos, but even so that isnt a representation of his party and he himself has adressed the issue and admitted he made a mistake. ELAM in 2024 is more a Conservative party as opossed to fascismic, this id why DHSY is being weakened, the party has shifted to a more liberal stance whereas ELAM is hardline Conservative. ShovelandSpade (talk) 06:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Christou was 40 when they cut ties Braganza (talk) 06:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Idk his age so id be lying, but he did have a bit of history with them, most of the others dont but as I said, after cutting ties he admitted it was a mistake and the party even pre 2020 toned it down a lot, as I said, theyre more conservative hardliners now as oppossed to anything else. ShovelandSpade (talk) 08:47, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I actual don't see any huge differences between the current program and their 2019 program (when XA was still on their website)
only things which changed are references to adoption through same-sex couples (which they still oppose), Drugs & Greek Orthodoxy Braganza (talk) 10:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I asked where in their program anything is fascismic, remember, Conservatism isnt fascism. ShovelandSpade (talk) 12:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this is the problem, you can't check a program how radical is nowdays, if it was never radical to begin with Braganza (talk) 13:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Im not the one who claims radicalism im just playing to your level here. ShovelandSpade (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you wanted to look at the program, i searched for the old one (when it was still linked to XA) and found a nearly identical program
even though the program might not appear fascismic, pre-2020 ELAM clearly was and during this period they used a prototype of the current one Braganza (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And im asking, what in the program is fascismic, if you cant find anything youre just making my point without realising. Ive said this many times. ShovelandSpade (talk) 14:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pre-2020 ELAM was the branch of XA, no doubt in that, even ELAM linked them on their website. Apparently ELAM just kept the program and modified it a bit over the years but this doesn't change the fact that the core program is the same. How radical the program is or not doesn't matter because it is still the same program of their fascist past. Braganza (talk) 14:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not how it works, its either fascismic or its not, if you cant find anything in said program to prove your point then I cant help that and it leaves it at a claim. ShovelandSpade (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We go by what reliable third-party sources state, not the interpretation or reading of its program or manifesto by editors. Editors aren't supposed to interpret sources but go by what they explicitly state. Its party program is a first-party source. Third-party sources take precedent over it. Helper201 (talk) 17:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes except when you're making near slanderous accusations where even third party sourcing doesn't cover you. Fascism is not only frowned upon in some countries it's downright illegal to identify as a fascist or at least sympathize with certain fascist figures, at the point where neither ELAM nor MOST of its supporters sympathise with that ideology, you can't accuse them of such hence why I have left it as a claim.
Why are you still so upset that it isn't in the infobox, it's almost like you want to force an impression on people otherwise you would have no issue seen as it's already addressed in the article. ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally as I have stated before, rarely any reputable third party sources call ELAM fascists anymore so even there you dont have much to go on. Best case scenario is that its a former fascist party and even then wouldnt warrant the infobox as that is reserved for current information. ShovelandSpade (talk) 18:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ ELAM has often been described as ultranationalist:
    • Cyprus and the roadmap for peace - A critical interrogation of the conflict. p.87. Edited by Michalis S. Michael and Yucel Vural. Chapter authors - Yucel Vural, Sertac Sonan and Michalis S. Michael. Published by Edward Elgar Publishing in Cheltenham, UK. Published in 2018.
    • "NDR Info Nachrichten vom 31.05.2021". Norddeutscher Rundfunk. 31 May 2021. Retrieved 6 October 2023.
    • "Parlamentswahl in Zypern - Konservative Regierungspartei als Favorit". Nau (website) [de]. 30 May 2021. Retrieved 6 October 2023.
    • Miranda Christou (16 April 2021). "The remnants of Golden Dawn are winning support in Cyprus". openDemocracy. Retrieved 6 October 2023.
    • Nigel O'Connor (8 November 2013). "I Went to the Cypriot Golden Dawn's Fifth Birthday Party". Vice. Retrieved 6 October 2023.
  2. ^ Πισώπλατη μαχαιριά της Ε.Ε στην Κύπρο! Ερντογάν: “Ανοίγει το 17 Κεφάλαιο των ενταξιακών” Archived 2016-04-28 at the Wayback Machine, ELAM 30-11-2015
  3. ^ Η Ε.Ε. καραδοκεί για τον φυσικό μας πλούτο Archived 2016-06-03 at the Wayback Machine, ELAM 28-01-2016
  4. ^ ELAM has often been described as neo-fascist:
  5. ^ Klaus Hillenbrand (3 September 2023). "Rechte Gewalt auf Zypern: Rechtsradikale greifen Migranten an". Die Tageszeitung. Retrieved 6 October 2023. Viele Zyprioten machen die neonazistische Partei Elam (Nationale Volksfront), eine Schwesterorganisation der verbotenen griechischen Partei „Goldene Morgenröte", für die Eskalation der Gewalt verantwortlich.
  6. ^ "Αφιέρωμα: Ιωάννης Μεταξάς (1871-1941), εκείνος που είπε το "ΟΧΙ"" [Tribute: Ioannis Metaxas (1871-1941), the one who said "NO"]. elamcy.com (in Greek). 27 October 2014.
  7. ^ Nordsieck, Wolfram (2016). "Cyprus". Parties and Elections in Europe.
  8. ^ Katsourides, Yiannos (December 2013). "Determinants of extreme right reappearance in Cyprus: The National Popular Front (ELAM), Golden Dawn's sister party". South European Society and Politics. 18 (4): 567–589. doi:10.1080/13608746.2013.798893. S2CID 153418352.
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