Talk:Cinema of Palestine/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Moving Article

I have moved this article from Palestinian cinema to Cinema of Palestine, but it keeps getting moved back. I would like to request a consensus agreement as to the title of this article.

As a member of WikiProject Films, one of my key aims is to help with the standardisation of film articles. One area where I've done quite a bit of work is in creating and editing the templates and articles that come under the umbrella of World cinema. Along with other contributors, I have attempted to ensure each national cinema article has certain standard elements - such as the World cinema template and a continental cinema template, as well as a standardised title. Standardisation makes it easier for people to find articles, and/or avoids redirects. It also helps continental templates such as the one for West Asian cinema look more appealing as the entries are alphabetised.

There are currently full articles dealing with the cinema of 90 different nations (plus articles on a few sub-national and historical regions). Of the 90, 88 currently have a standardised title "Cinema of ----".

The only exceptions are:

  1. Columbia - as there is no proper Cinema of Columbia article, the templates currently (temporarily) link to List of Colombian films
  2. Palestine - I initially moved this article and cleaned up many links in Wikipedia to avoid redirects. I have moved this article a total of 3 times, and each time User:Shamir1 has moved it back to Palestinan cinema. To quote that user's arguments for reverting my moves:

Personally, I don't see any "obvious reasons" for keeping this article's title in a non-standard format. I think that there certainly is something "to keep in line" - i.e. standardisation with the other 88 "Cinema of ----" articles. And there is no clarification of what he means by "one of the most obvious and undisputed reasons on WP", unless he means that the reason can be found at the links he has provided, one of which is about deletion debates and the other a seemingly irrelevant link to the BBC news site. I have zero wish to delete this article - my desire when I started working on the World cinema template was to encourage people to assist in the creation of as many national cinema articles as possible. I just believe that giving the article a standardised title would be an improvement.

I would appreciate responses from Shamir1 and anyone else on whether they feel this article should be standardised like all the others or not. If there are valid arguments for keeping a non-standard title and some consensus against moving the article back is reached, I will happily back down. Gram123 13:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Support move - the WP link he offered does not seem to be relevant, as it discusses whether or not certain articles' existence is valid as an independent page. Hopefully that's not considered an issue here. You might want to also msg Shamir on his talk page, in the interest of fair notice to all parties of this discussion. Girolamo Savonarola 02:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
You're right. I have messaged the user and requested his input. Gram123 14:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Comment, I'll wait for a response from Shamir, but my guess is the reason that we have Cinema of STATE ... and Palestine is not a state. Take for instance Bengali cinema which is a transnational cinema in India and Bangladesh... Cinema of Bengal might have worked since it is from East and West Bengal... but, I just want to show you that we might not exactly have a standardization on sub-state entities. So, I'm not against the move because I don't think it needs to imply state... but, we should standardize. gren グレン 03:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, What there is to keep in line is the use of Palestinian XXX rather than Palestine. Please review any news story and you will see that the vast majority (and by vast, I mean vast) do not use the word "Palestine." And yes, of course, Palestine is not a state. If the BBC site got cut off, here it is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_6040000/newsid_6044000/6044090.stm#palestine Choosing what to keep in line should not interfere with accuracy. --Shamir1 12:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks for your response. Having read the information at the BBC link, perhaps the article should therefore be renamed Cinema of the Palestinian Territories or Cinema of the Palestinian Land? Gram123 14:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "... of Palestinian territories" would work except that I recall some opposition on the grounds that this cinema is transnational. TewfikTalk 23:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Support Given that we have Cinema of Taiwan, whose status as an independent state is vociferously disputed by China, I don't see why we cannot have Cinema of Palestine. "Palestinian territories" will not work given that Palestinian films are produced by many diaspora Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel. "Cinema of the Palestinian Land" is awkward (it's not land that makes cinema, its the people connected to a land and the name of the land the Palestinians come from is Palestine. Tiamut 23:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

10 minutes after I post you show up? Please refrain from Wikistalking. TewfikTalk 00:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Whoa there! Head a little inflated there, Tewfik? I don't waste my time following you around. This article is on my watchlist. When changes are made, I take notice and add my own thoughts. Please remember to WP:AGF. Tiamut 15:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Cautious oppose. Is the article about cinema by people from an ethnic group or cinema by the citizens of a state (or territory)? If the article is about 'cinema made by Palestinians wherever they live' then "Cinema of Palestine" is the wrong title, and 'Palestinian cinema' is correct. If the article is about 'cinema originating from the Palestinian territories', then "Cinema of the Palestinian territories" would be better. Currently, of course, the article doesn't have much to say at all, but it all depends on what the ambition for this article is. Cop 663 (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Cinema of Palestine please! Firstly: I object to Tewfik unilateral move... moving an article such as this without any discussion is really not acceptable. Secondly, Tewfik use Bengali cinema as a comparison...but that is not really relevant. Bengali film is from an area, and is Indian or Bangladeshi. E.g. you do not present your film (at festivals, etc) as primarly "Bengali".. no film has won at Cannes, or an Oscar as a representative of "Bengali film" ...(if they have won awards, it has been representing India or Bangladesh)... However, films have won at Cannes, and Academy Awards (="Oscar") representing "Palestine"! Obviously, it should have the same naming standard as for the other countries/places represented in Cannes, Venice, Academy Awards, or whatever. Move it back to Cinema of Palestine, please, and do not make such controversial moves without discussion in the future. Thank you. Regards, Huldra (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

....and while we are at it, look at Cinema of Hong Kong, Cinema of Puerto Rico and Cinema of Taiwan, well Tewfik: these are all partially (Taiwan) or fully (Hong-Kong) considered "non-states"; still they are "Cinema of..." articles. I am therefore moving the article back. Regards, Huldra (talk) 10:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Here, here Huldra! Tiamut 15:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Convenience break

"Palestinian cinema is relatively young in comparison to Arab cinema as a whole" why would u say that... there has been palestinian movies since the 1940s... u can't say it was an industry but the fact is that feature and docimentary films were made.... in the 1960s and 1970s there were many documentary films (produced mainly by palestinian parties.... So i don't understand what u mean.. Egypt had a thriving cinema but other arab countries didn't (and doesn't) palestinian movies were made much b4 most arab countries

That's a good point. I'll try to find some reliable sources on the subject and make some changes. You can too though. Just press edit at the top of the page. If you have any useful references you can add them to the page directly or post them here. Tiamut 22:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 1

There was already a discussion on this, and as Huldra pointed out in the original discussion, "Palestine" is used when Palestinian films are awarded by international venues (or whatever you call them), most other "almost-countries" or territories used "Cinema of blank" on wikipedia and the phrase Palestinian territories would exclude actors like Mohammad Bakri, Hiam Abbas, Ali Suliman and other Palestinians who are not from the West Bank or Gaza Strip. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Good source

  • Palestinian cinema. Putting it here so that if someone is feeling industrious they can add info from it to the article. Otherwise, it will be here to remind me when I have time to do it myself. Cheers. Tiamuttalk 14:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 07:06, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Cinema of Palestine → Palestinian cinema — This title currently of article is confusing. When I saw it and clicked on article I thought it would be about cinema of Palestine (makes sense, right?) But surprise, it is not. Palestine is historical region including current area of Israel. This article now is not about that. It is only about Palestinian people cinema. So title should show this. LibiBamizrach (talk) 05:31, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose As you can see from the above discussions, a majority of editors have found Cinema of Palestine to be an appropriate title for this article. There is no confusion. For the Cinema of Israel, one goes there, for the Cinema of Palestine, one comes here. Alll of the cinema articles use the same naming convention. The case of Palestine should be no different. The problem is more in our Wikipedia article on Palestine, which focuses on the geographic definition of the term rather than the political entity known by that name, which we call State of Palestine here at Wikipedia, even though its most common name is Palestine. That problem should be addressed in those articles. This one is fine. Tiamuttalk 06:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    lol excuse me maybe I missed something. when I look at above like you say, I see 4 people (include yourself) that support "Cinema in Palestine" and a couple people who opposed it. this is not really convincing. let's be honest, ok? there is no problem with the Palestine article, it is very clear. the problem is here, and if on wikipedia we decided to use that naming for main article, it should be used for all minor related articles too like this one. please do not pretend that there were not many long discussions about naming conventions of Palestine and State of Palestine in past. the evidence is saved there and easy to see to anyone. and you seem to be someone who actually took part in that discussions. LibiBamizrach (talk) 13:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I'm not seeing any cause for confusion. This article would seem to cover the former British Mandate for Palestine and the existing State of Palestine, not just the Palestinian people. PC78 (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    i don't understand you. you are saying that this article covers the former british mandate for palestine? what makes you think this? do you see some cinema here connected to any jewish people who lived in palestine? I don't see this. LibiBamizrach (talk) 13:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    I see a section in the article clearly marked "1935-48". Anything produced during this period would be "Palestinian", regardless of whether it was Muslim or Jewish. PC78 (talk) 13:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    oh interesting, so is the point you are making that we should include info about all jewish/israeli cinema to this article too? i have feeling some people would argue against that LibiBamizrach (talk) 14:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    I'm suggesting no such thing, so don't put words in my mouth. We already have Cinema of Israel, and we have this article to cover the cinema of the former and current states of Palestine (and by extension, the Palestinian people). I don't see any problem with the current set up, nor do I see any basis for the change you are proposing. PC78 (talk) 17:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    back off thank you. i asked you a question, do not need to be defensive and tell me to not put words in your mouth. what you said does not make sense. israel was not state before 1948. it was british mandate for palestine. but now you say you do not support putting jewish cinema to this article. so basically you say jewish cinema in british mandate for palestine has no place on wikipedia, based on your statements above. please clarify if it is wrong. LibiBamizrach (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
    Again, that's not what I said. It would probably be relevant to both articles, however, as there does not appear to be any Jewish cinema from the region during this period it's an entirely hypothetical concern that we don't need to worry about. PC78 (talk) 19:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Support I am nominator. LibiBamizrach (talk) 13:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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First paragraph weakly sourced and not reflective of article contents

I fixed some misleading sourcing for the first paragraph, but generally it seems an odd introduction to the contents of the article, and to suggest that Palestinian cinema "is relatively young in comparison to Arab cinema as a whole" seems to contradict the body of the article. I'm not sure how to frame it as a non-expert on the subject, but Palestinian cinema seems to have been an influential force in the Arab world and beyond, especially in the 60s and 70s,(source), while the introduction seems to only be referring to a recent period of filmmaking. 94.187.52.118 (talk) 08:36, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

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