Talk:Caucasus hunter-gatherer
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
Chronology[edit]
" The light skin pigmentation characteristic of modern Europeans is estimated to have spread across Europe in a "selective sweep" during the Mesolithic (19,000 to 11,000 years ago). The associated TYRP1 alleles, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, emerge around 19,000 years ago – during the LGM and most likely in the Caucasus.[19] The HERC2 variation for blue eyes first appears around 13,000 to 14,000 years ago in Italy and the Caucasus.[1]".
And...
"The HERC2 variation for blue eyes first appears around 13,000 to 14,000 years ago in Italy and the Caucasus.[1]"
SLC24A5 wasn't widespread across Europe as recent as 7,000 years ago, or even later. Also, the blue eye variation comes from the much earlier Western Hunter Gatherers, who were of the Black phenotype and had been living across Europe for tens of thousands of years before the Early European Farmers and the Yamnaya/Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. More here: CARTA: Ancient DNA and Human Evolution – Johannes Krause: Ancient European Population History. (20:00) Prof. Wauter Krause in 2016: "Light skin that we have so typically in Europe today is in low frequency even in Early Farmers [Neolithic, 5500 BC in Italy], but only starts to spread in the Bronze Age [2500-2300 BC]."
Also, the Yamnaya were a mix of Eastern Hunter Gatherers who were about 70-80% Western Hunter Gatherers, and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers, making the Yamnaya about 50% Western Hunter Gatherer and 50% Caucasus Hunter Gatherer. See Figure 1 B, (NATURE) Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians.
The Early European Farmers who arrived before the Yamnaya, came from Turkey and were about 70% Anatolian Hunter Gatherers and 30% Western Hunter Gatherers. And that's before they left the Caucasus and Anatolia, for the expanses of Europe that had already been populated with Western Hunter Gatherers for tens of thousands of years earlier.
I would say it is easy to underestimate the influence of the Western Hunter Gatherers on Europe and today's population.
"The associated TYRP1 alleles, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, emerge around 19,000 years ago – during the LGM and most likely in the Caucasus.[18][19]"
Here is what happened: the ancestral allele for gene pigmentation means skin pigments black. Derived alleles knock out specific functions and cause non-pigmentation. Derived alleles for SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 already existed among the earliest Out Of Africa Western Hunter Gatherers, however, they existed at a very low frequency. This stayed the same for the next 40,000 years. It is the high frequency that came in with the migratory waves from Anatolia (Early European Farmers, SLC24A5) and Russia/Caucasus (Yamna, Bronze Age, SLC45A2) that eventually resulted in the over 90% frequency of both. (See Krause.)
For instance Kostenki14 2 out of 113 had derived allele SLC45A2, 1 out of 6 had SLC24A5. Extended Data Table 5, (NATURE, 2016) The genetic history of Ice Age Europe. The prevalence of both at over 90% is new.
83.84.100.133 (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, the information presented here is inaccurate and not present in the source material. Hunan201p (talk) 07:35, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Content concerns - February 2020[edit]
Rant by blocked editor
|
---|
Wow. Another fantastic Wikipedia article created by obviously well-informed, well-educated people with degrees in the field they're writing about. Just out of curiosity, are there any textbooks which discuss "Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers", or is this a term the Wikipedia community has simply made-up. You don't need to answer that question. I already know the answer. The majority of this article relies upon a one-page BBC news article written by a reporter who clearly didn't understand the implications of the data with which he was presented. This is the primary source for this article? -some reporters one-page interpretation of a peer-reviewed paper? Seriously? Because that reporter clearly knew what he was talking about, right? And blogs? REALLY? Wikipedia is citing random peoples' blogs now? Because that's definitely a reliable source. Oh, and the answer to the question I posed earlier, is, "no, the term 'Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers' is not in any textbook, because the Wikipedia community did just make the term up". How do I know this? Well, I have a Bachelor of Science in anthropology, minors in Archaeology and GIS, I've been around the world on archaeology digs, contributed to peer-reviewed papers, taught classes, and I'm currently working on my Masters. AND . . . I had never heard of the term "Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer" before, until reading it on Wikipedia 2 minutes ago. Congratulations Wikipedia. I've spent the last decade and a half of my life focused exclusively on anthropology and archaeology, and you managed to stump me yet again. Good job Wikipedia. Wikipedia is now creating its own original content based on blogs and random reporters' 1 page summaries of peer-reviewed papers. But teacher, why aren't we allowed to use Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C40:4A00:1D00:F99A:C427:DADA:EDCF (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2020 (UTC) OK, I just located the paper this entire Wikipedia article is based upon.
@IP: To all this nagging and bragging a short answer: if you want to say that "WP is crap", that's fine and we'll take it as the bottomline of your rant. If you care about content quality in WP, then go ahead and participate; if you want to participate, act collegially and don't shout and collectively insult the editors that happen to read your rant. If the page has the above-mentioned issues, we'll take care of it in due time. –Austronesier (talk) 09:24, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
@IP: First, you claim the concept "HAS NO RELEVANCE IN ANTHROPOLOGY OR ARCHAEOLOGY", but when Joshua Jonathan shows you that it is cited in other peer-reviewed publications, does that diminish its relevance? Some more then: doi:10.1038/s41467-018-08220-8, doi:10.1126/science.aar7711. –Austronesier (talk) 20:59, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
|
Renaming, and a possibly confusing redirect[edit]
Thank you to Joshua Jonathan for correcting the name of this article to Caucasus hunter-gatherer, which is the correct term according to multiple articles on JSTOR and others. There is still a confusing aspect to the name of this article, as there is a redirect page, Caucasus hunter-gatherers (plural) that redirects to the list-like article Prehistoric Caucasus. Shouldn't the plural Caucasus hunter-gatherers redirect to this article Caucasus hunter-gatherer (non plural)? Netherzone (talk) 14:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Netherzone: Done. This page also was a redirect to Prehistoric Caucasus before, but then was split into a full article. The plural redirect was not changed. This always happens when people create redirects to sections of other pages without leaving a comment line at the target. I have also added an alternative name with source. The citations in the article are still defective and messy, including wrong attributions. I'll try to clean them up first before we proceed with more material. –Austronesier (talk) 15:32, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you Austronesier for the quick response and fix. Netherzone (talk) 15:34, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, when you say there are "multiple" papers on JSTOR relating to "caucasus hunter gatherer", "caucasus hunter gatherers", "caucasian hunter gatherer/gatherer(s)", or any variations thereof, you mean 3, right? Searching all of those terms, and any variations thereof on JSTOR, returns a total of 3 peer-reviewed papers with any of those terms included, and 2 of those papers simply cite one another. When you say, "according to multiple articles on JSTOR", by "multiple", you mean a total of 3, right?
- You know what? Let me revise my previous comment. When searching for ("Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer/s" -jones -mathieson) on JSTOR you get 3 total results. When doing the same search on Google Scholar, you get 0 (zero) total results. On JSTOR if you remove the 2 primary sources (-Jones -Mathieson) cited in this article, you get 3 total results with any mention of "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer/s". On Google Scholar, if you search for ("Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer/s" -jones -mathieson), you get 0 (zero) total results. Yup, this series of Wikipedia articles are among the best articles on Wikipedia. As a teaching anthropologist, I'm happy to see the excellent level of research Wikipedia is turning-out to students who so often resort to Wikipedia, despite their instructor's warnings.
- Why would you remove "Jones" from the search-term"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:10, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct Joshua Jonathan. I would like to specifically thank you for pointing this out. I apologize for the derogatory tone of my previous replies. I can now see that you have extensive experience in peer-reviewed research, and I offer my sincerest apologies.
- As Joshua Jonathan has astutely pointed-out, of the 5 total peer-reviewed sources on JSTOR which make any mention of "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer(s)", they are all either the paper written by Jones et. al., or they simply cite Jones et. al. Every single one of them. If you remove "Jones" from the search query, i.e.: ("Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer" -Jones), you get zero results. This means that the 5 sources on JSTOR which include this term are all either the Jones et. al. paper in which this term was coined, or the 4 papers which have simply cited Jones' work in their own research.
- AND, the term "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer(s)" isn't in the title of any of those papers, which means that this concept wasn't the focus of any of those papers. This overwhelmingly suggests that the concept of "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers" was simply a secondary concept discussed in the original Jones paper. Wikipedia has written a 1,000 word article about a term which was coined in a single peer-reviewed paper to give definition to a secondary concept mentioned in that paper.
- Again, I would like to thank Joshua Jonathan for pointing this out. Without Joshua Jonathan's contribution, I never would have gone back to JSTOR and noticed this glaring discrepancy. Thank you again Joshua Jonathan. The "renowned scholars in anthropology" you're fond of mentioning, I now strongly suspect you may be one of them yourself. My apologies again for my previously disparaging tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C40:4A00:1D00:C0CC:A3CF:5BED:62AA (talk) 11:11, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Maternal admixture[edit]
The lead says "Eastern Hunter-Gatherers are believed to have received some maternal admixture from CHGs." Which source for "maternal"? And "some"? The article also says "Yamna samples had up to 43% of CHG ancestry." EHG is to be undrstood as different from Yamna? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:01, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- The content in question was inserted by a new editor. I partially reverted their changes but left their addition regarding the maternal admixture since it is verified on this article. "Some" is also an appropriate word and is consistent with David Anthony's new work as well as mtDNA and Y-DNA findings in relevant archaeological cultures. Feel free to copyedit it if you think that the current wording is not accurate. Puduḫepa 08:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Physical appearance of Caucasus Hunter Gatherers[edit]
Here's the quote from S8 Functional variation in ancient samples, a supplementary document from Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation:
Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHGs)
Both Kotias and Satsurblia CHGs [15] were predicted by Hirisplex to have brown eyes (>0.96) and a dark hair shade (>0.92). Looking at skin-pigmentation sites, both individuals carried the dark-skin allele at rs16891982 and the light-pigmentation allele at rs1426654. Similar to the Hum2 and Motala12 individuals, Kotias showed exclusively haplotype-associated alleles at the C11-defining positions (with
at least 5 reads of such alleles per site), suggesting it carried the C11 haplotype.
Hunan201p (talk) 07:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- These are research results by Günther at al. So it is a primary source for this statement. Günther at al. qualifies as secondary source only for WHGs and EHGs. I will revert per WP:MEDRS. –Austronesier (talk) 09:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Mesolithic migrations - unverifiable information, original research[edit]
I refer to the "Mesolithic migrations" section of the article.
Quoting all content from the section, in boldface:
There was probably a migration of populations from the Near East and Caucasus to Europe during the Mesolithic, around 14,000 years ago, much earlier than the migrations associated with the Neolithic Revolution.[1]
Hunan201p comment: Fu does not make clear that this information is relevant to Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. Document does not contain phrase "Caucasus hunter gatherer".
A few specimens from the Villabruna Cluster also show genetic affinities for East Asians that are derived from gene flow.[1][2]
Hunan201p comment: Again, source does not make clear how this is relevant to Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. These specimens are not identified as Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.
The light skin pigmentation characteristic of modern Europeans is estimated to have spread across Europe in a "selective sweep" during the Mesolithic (19,000 to 11,000 years ago).
Hunan201p comment:
This does not appear to have any relevance to Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.
The associated TYRP1 alleles, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, emerge around 19,000 years ago – during the LGM and most likely in the Caucasus.[3][4] The HERC2 variation for blue eyes first appears around 13,000 to 14,000 years ago in Italy and the Caucasus.[1]
Hunan201p comment: No document cited here says anything of the sort. Beleza, et al. doesn't even contain the keyword "Caucasus". Jones, et al. do not claim a Caucasian origin for SLC45A2 or SLC24A5, but merely note that CHG carried one variant of SLC45A2, like other newrby populations at the time. Qu does not state that HERC2 originated in southern Europe or the Caucasus.
People similar to northern Caucasus and Iranian plateau hunter-gatherers arrived before 6000 BCE in Pakistan and north-west India,[5][note 1] before the advent of farming in northern India,[5]
Hunan201p comment: This appears to be an interpretation of a convoluted and tentative (and untested) hypothesis of Narasimhan. Even more troublesome is the citation of the WordPress blog of Razib Khan, which also appears to be a vague hypothesis.
References
- ^ a b c Fu et al. 2016.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Dutchen 2016
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Beleza, Sandra; Santos, António M.; McEvoy, Brian; Alves, Isabel; Martinho, Cláudia; Cameron, Emily; Shriver, Mark D.; Parra, Esteban J.; Rocha, Jorge (January 2013). "The Timing of Pigmentation Lightening in Europeans". Molecular Biology and Evolution. 30 (1): 24–35. doi:10.1093/molbev/mss207. PMC 3525146. PMID 22923467.
- ^ Jones, Eppie R.; Gonzalez-Fortes, Gloria; Connell, Sarah; Siska, Veronika; Eriksson, Anders; Martiniano, Rui; McLaughlin, Russell L.; Gallego Llorente, Marcos; Cassidy, Lara M.; Gamba, Cristina; Meshveliani, Tengiz; Bar-Yosef, Ofer; Müller, Werner; Belfer-Cohen, Anna; Matskevich, Zinovi; Jakeli, Nino; Higham, Thomas F. G.; Currat, Mathias; Lordkipanidze, David; Hofreiter, Michael; Manica, Andrea; Pinhasi, Ron; Bradley, Daniel G. (16 November 2015). "Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians". Nature Communications. 6 (1): 8912. Bibcode:2015NatCo...6.8912J. doi:10.1038/ncomms9912. PMC 4660371. PMID 26567969.
- ^ a b c Narasimhan et al. 2019, p. 11.
- ^ Shinde et al. 2019, p. 6.
- ^ Shinde et al. 2019, p. 4.
Hunan201p (talk) 08:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding
People similar to northern Caucasus and Iranian plateau hunter-gatherers arrived before 6000 BCE in Pakistan and north-west India
- Narasimhan et al. (2019), as quoted in the reference:
Iranian farmer–related ancestry [...] was characteristic of northern Caucasus and Iranian plateau hunter-gatherers.
- So, rephrased that would be
According to Narasimhan et al. (2019) Iranian farmer related people arrived before 6000 BCE in Pakistan and north-west India. They suggest the possibility that this "Iranian farmer–related ancestry [...] was [also] characteristic of northern Caucasus and Iranian plateau hunter-gatherers.
- That's not "convoluted," but commonsensical. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:59, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Modern Armenians -- irrelevant section[edit]
Quoting section content in boldface:
Modern Armenians were found to derive from an admixture event in the Bronze Age (3rd to 2nd millennia BCE), which combined various Eurasian lineages. Since the time of the Bronze Age collapse, about 1200 BCE, Armenians have remained genetically isolated as a population, with a higher genetic affinity to Neolithic Anatolians, the Neolithic Levant, and Neolithic European farmers than to modern Near Eastern populations.[1]
This information appears to have no relevance to Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. Source material does not contain keywords "Caucasus Hunter Gatherers", "Kotias", "Satsurblia cluster", etc. In any case this section is out of place and belongs elsewhere. The article is about Caucasus Hunter Gatherers. Hunan201p (talk) 08:28, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Agree here. Irrelevant and coatracking. –Austronesier (talk) 10:01, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Haber, Marc; Mezzavilla, Massimo; Xue, Yali; Comas, David; Gasparini, Paolo; Zalloua, Pierre; Tyler-Smith, Chris (21 October 2015). "Genetic evidence for an origin of the Armenians from Bronze Age mixing of multiple populations". European Journal of Human Genetics. 24 (6): 931–936. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2015.206. PMC 4820045. PMID 26486470.
Contamination from unreliable sources -- BBC and various blogs[edit]
This article is heavily contaminated with blog sources for notes and unreliable sources like BBC.
List of unreliable sources identified:
eurogenes.blogspot.com
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.nl/2016/06/ancient-genomes-from-neolithic-west-asia.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2015/11/westasian-in-flesh-hunter-gatherers.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-3483278
Previously, I removed a link from Wordpress blogger Razib Khan. Hunan201p (talk) 08:53, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Agree here. BBC maximally can be cited to ascertain notabilty of the topic. –Austronesier (talk) 10:00, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Good Luck[edit]
Rant by blocked editor
|
---|
OK guys, look, this is genuinely going to be my last contribution to this topic. Like I said before, I can’t waste any more time on this. So, here are some things which will be advantageous to your understanding of the subjects discussed in this article, all of the related articles, and all future articles you’re involved-in, which rely heavily upon peer-reviewed research in general. Guys, for the love of goodness, there are no “hot topics of debate among renowned scholars” in anthropology. This is a meaningless, nonsensical phrase. Look, I know that in your minds, you think you’re seeing what you believe to be conflicting data in different peer-reviewed papers. This has nothing to do with any “debates”. There are no debates in peer-reviewed papers. Here is a very simple proof of that: how is funding for research projects obtained? Through grants allocated from Universities and Scientific Institutions (like National geographic). Research teams have to submit what’s called a “grant proposal” which basically says why they think this research will be meaningful, why they think it will be successful, the feasibility of collecting the the desired data, duration estimates, cost estimates, notability estimates (how well this data will integrate with other research) etc. In a grant proposal, you’re trying to convince someone to give you money to fund your research. OK, so, if something like a debate were ongoing within peer-reviewed papers in peer-reviewed journals, if someone wanted to receive a grant to conduct field research which they hope will disprove someone else’s research, what do you think would be the response of grant institutions? “Hasn’t similar research already been performed?” “Yes, but I want to disprove that research.” “OK, but what if you can’t? Then we’ve just given you $100,000 and all you did is spend 5 years collecting redundant data which simply verified the original research.” And even if that weren’t the case, no one’s going to waste years in field research trying to disprove someone else’s research, because if they can’t do it, they’ve just wasted years of their life simply proving that someone else was right. And yes, it literally takes years to produce a single peer-reviewed paper. Peer-reviewed papers don’t debate one another. Period. This is without question. The reality is that many of you simply don’t understand the peer-review process, and honestly, I have serious doubts that many of you even genuinely understand what a “peer-reviewed paper” and a “peer-reviewed journal” are. “This is a hot topic of debate among renowned scholars” is a completely nonsensical statement. But alright, let’s say that there was such a thing as a “hot topic of debate among renowned scholars”. How would this article qualify? Go to JSTOR and do a search for “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer”. How many results are there? There are a total of 5 results. Now, exclude “Jones” from those 5 results: i.e., search for “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer” -Jones. Now how many results are there? Zero, right? What does this tell you? Either Jones is the author of all 5 of those papers, or Jones authored one paper, and then 4 people simply cited Jones (and this is definitely the case, because I guarantee Jones et al. have not authored 5 peer-reviewed papers within the last 5 years- this would be beyond impossible). So, now you have “Jones et al.” who authored a paper, and 4 people who’ve cited Jones. Which of those people are “debating his research”? And let’s say that it actually were the case that all four of those papers were actually “debating” Jones’ research (which in itself is another silly notion), but how would this qualify as a “hot topic of debate in anthropology”? Someone wrote a paper 2 years ago, and 4 people disagreed with it, and that qualifies as a “hot topic of debate in anthropology”? And again, no one’s going to waste the time and money getting funding, conducting research, composing a paper, submitting it, writing the revisions, submitting it again- literally half a million dollars and years of their lives, simply to create a peer-reviewed paper to demonstrate that they believe someone else misinterpreted data. Without question, Jones et al. wrote the original paper, and four other teams have cited his data. So, where’s the debate? Who is debating Jones? Who is Jones debating? There are no debates within peer-reviewed papers and journals. And even if there were, where would the evidence be that there is a debate involving Jones’ paper? Without question, Jones et al, went into the field, conducted research, submitted a paper which was eventually accepted for publication in a peer-reviewed journal, and then four other research teams cited Jones’ data. This is, without question, what occurred. Jones et al. themselves, would find any other scenario laughable. What’s more, there are no “hot topics” in anthropology, period. Again, this is just a nonsensical, meaningless phrase. I’m going to do some simple math for you: how many 4-year colleges and universities are there in the US alone? More than 4,000. How many of them have Anthropology Departments? About 95% How many people are employed in each of those anthropology departments? An average of probably about 10 people. Simply at the university level (not including the private sector: i.e. contract archaeologists, medical anthropologists working for pharma companies, etc.) simply at the university level, how many degreed anthropologists are there working for American universities? 4,000 x .95 x 10 = roughly 38,000 anthropologists employed at the university level. Why is it important that we specify at the university level? Because for 90% of those anthropologists, it’s literally written into their employment contracts that they have to demonstrate progress on projects outside of their teaching curriculum which enhance the esteem of the university and the department. It’s literally part of their job requirement. At any one time, in the US alone, there are 30,000 - 40,000 projects in anthropology taking place at the university-level. Which of these are “hot topics in anthropology”? What is the criteria being used to determine which of these are hot topics? If you were to survey every anthropologist working at the university-level in the US and ask them, “what would you say is a hot topic in anthropology”? The answer, almost to a person, is going to be, “that question doesn’t make sense.” And let’s extend that same reasoning to the concept of “renowned scholars”, except, let’s make the criteria more stringent. Let’s say that to be considered a “renowned scholar in anthropology”, you have to be employed at the university level, have an advanced in degree in anthropology (Master’s or Doctorate) and have contributed to at least one paper published in a peer-reviewed journal (which is actually a completely redundant requirement, because by the time someone earns an advanced degree, they’ve inevitably been published in multiple peer-reviewed journals. I, myself, am named in 6 peer-reviewed journals as a member of archaeology teams whose data has been published in peer-reviewed journals). In the US alone, how many “renowned scholars in anthropology” would that give us? 4,000 x .95 x 10 x .75 (.75 being the percent of people employed in university anthropology departments who have advanced degrees). So, in the US alone, how many “renowned scholars in anthropology” are there? Roughly 28,500. In the US alone there are roughly 28,500 renowned scholars in anthropology. Literally, you can drop a penny out of an airplane flying anywhere over the US, and odds are it’s going to land within half a mile of a “renowned scholar in anthropology” who works at the university level, has an advanced degree in anthropology, and has been published in a peer-reviewed journal. There are literally millions upon millions of peer-reviewed papers in anthropology. Where do you think they’re all coming from? Again, the idea of there being “renowned scholars is anthropology” is just meaningless nonsense. In the US alone there are 28,500 “renowned scholars in anthropology”. How many are there worldwide? At least 250,000, right? And now, we’re going to get into the heart of the disconnect that I think we’re all having in this debate- I don’t think many (or even any) of you actually understand what peer-reviewed journals and peer-reviewed papers actually are (or, in big bad scientific terminology, “peer-reviewed data”). Saying that “renowned scholars” are debating a topic, and then citing peer-reviewed papers as your source for this belief, is inherently nonsensical. When you say that “renowned scholars are debating this topic”, and then you simply cite peer-reviewed journals, well, guess what? I’ve been cited as a member of archaeological research which has been published in peer-reviewed papers 6 times. So, I am literally one of the “renowned scholars” about whom you’re referring. Want to know what’s really scary? There are probably more than a million of us “renowned scholars in anthropology” who have had our names included in papers which have been published for peer-review. Seriously, how weird is that? Well, if you have a degree in anthropology, and are pursuing anthropology as a career, if you don’t intend to publish in peer-reviewed journals and make yourself a “renowned scholar” in anthropology, then I would strongly suggest you embark upon another career path, because you’re useless to both universities and within the private sector. If you’re not going to pursue research goals with the intention of eventually being peer-review published, then my man, find another career path, because no one’s going to have any interest in hiring you, in either the educational or private sectors. The idea that simply being published in a peer-reviewed journal makes you a “renowned scholar” in anthropology is ridiculous, because if you’ve been employed by a university for 5 years, and you’ve never had your name added to a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal, my man, your contract is not going to get renewed. There are no “renowned scholars” in anthropology. Quite the opposite. If you don’t create meaningful data, you’re going to be on the unemployment line. The purpose of a peer-reviewed journal is to verify that data has been collected according to the methodology specified by that journal, and now that journal stands behind the legitimacy of that data. Nothing more, nothing less. That journal is willing to stake its reputation that the data has been collected according to the contemporary standards and protocols within that field. Once a paper meets those standards, the journal may decide to publish it. The purpose of the peer-reviewed paper is to simply make the data public. Here’s where you all have a very distinct misunderstanding. Yes, peer-reviewed papers draw conclusions regarding the results of their data compared to their hypotheses. But peer-reviewed journals in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, endorse the authors’ conclusions regarding that data. This would lead to widespread censorship, lack of faith, and eventual collapse of the journal, BECAUSE THE SOLE PURPOSE OF A PEER-REVIEWED JOURNAL, IS BY DEFINITION, SIMPLY TO MAKE DATA PUBLIC FOR REVIEW BY THE AUTHORS’ PEERS. Hence, there can be no debate within peer-reviewed papers, because peer-reviewed journals simply wouldn’t publish data which may skew biased. If peer-reviewed journals did publish potentially skewed data, they’d lose their credibility almost immediately, and cease to exist within a few months. THIS IS WHY THERE ARE NO “HOT TOPICS OF DEBATE” in peer-reviewed papers published in peer-reviewed journals. Again, this idea is simply nonsensical gibberish. OK, so look, I’m going to explain to you all exactly how the term “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer” came into being, and I promise you, without question, what I’m going to tell you, is exactly what occurred: 1)Jones et al. applied for a grant from a scientific institution. It doesn’t matter if the grant proposal originated with Jones, or if the scientific institution asked for research teams to submit grant proposals for a specific subject the scientific institution wanted research conducted in. Either Jones said “we’d like to research this, can you fund us?” Or a scientific institution said, “we’d like someone to conduct research in this area. Send us your grant proposals.” It doesn’t really matter where the idea originated. And often, research is funded by grants from multiple sources. 2)Jones et al. went into the field and conducted data collection intermittently, over the course of many years. And yes, there are many different types of field work. Simply sitting in a lab, typing haplo-groups is considered field work. 3)Jones et al organized the data, and for the sake of defining specific groups within that data, created the term, “Caucasus Hunter-Gather”, as well as many other terms to define various genetic haplo-groups they identified in their research. 4)Jones et al submitted their findings for peer-review to a peer-reviewed journal. The journal sent the paper back for revisions. The revisions were made, and the paper was re-submitted. Eventually, after going through this process enough times, the paper was accepted for publish in a peer-reviewed journal. 5)Once the paper was published, and the data was public, four other research teams thought some of that data would be useful in their own research, and cited Jones et al. Since Jones et al. had named a specific group within their original paper “Caucasus Hunter Gatherers”, this was the name the other research teams used when citing that data. It’s as simple as that. Without question or argument, this is definitely what happened. There are no “renowned scholars”, there is no ongoing “debate”, this is not a “hot topic”. The process I just described above is exactly what occurred. There are no arguments to be made. This is not a widely recognized concept. Even in Jones’ paper, this is just one concept alongside many. The term “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer” is not in the title of a single peer-reviewed paper. In fact, it’s only in 5 peer-reviewed papers total, and those papers simply consist of Jones’ original paper, in which Jones et al. created this term to add definition to a group they were discussing, and then four other research teams who simply cited Jones’ data so they didn’t have to go into the field and collect this data for themselves (and this has been standard practice in every scientific field for about a century. What is the point of wasting years and millions of dollars replicating field research, when you can simply cite someone else’s data? Again, this is the purpose of the peer-review process- to ensure that the data was collected legitimately, so that the lengthy, expensive data-collection processes doesn’t have to be repeated by multiple research teams). And since Jones had already called this data “Caucasus Hunter Gatherers”, that’s the name the other research teams used when citing Jones’ data. And now, you all have turned this into a 1,000 word article on Wikipedia, simply because you have no understanding of the peer-review or academic processes, and you simply aren’t aware that the very sources you’re citing, peer-reviewed journals, would immediately disavow you if they knew how you were using their published peer-reviewed research. The entirety of research conducted upon “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers”, consists of a few sentences in a single peer-reviewed paper. If you want to call “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers” the “Satsurblia Cluster”, unfortunately, the same principal applies. You have the Jones paper, and then 2 papers which simply cites Jones. If you search for “Satsurblia Cluster -Jones”, again, you get zero results. This statement: “Caucasus hunter-gatherer (CHG), also called Satsurblia Cluster[1] is an anatomically modern human genetic lineage, first identified in a 2015 study,[2][3] based on the population genetics of several modern Western Eurasian (European, Caucasian and Near Eastern) population.” -is inherently untrue. This statement is based entirely upon a few mentions in a single peer-reviewed paper, and then 5 or 6 papers which have simply cited that paper. And again, these terms aren’t in the title of a single one of those papers- the Jones paper, or the papers which simply cite Jones- which means that this concept wasn’t even the focus of any of those papers. Guys, how many degreed anthropologists would you estimate there are worldwide? In the US alone, at the university-level, combined with the private sector, there a probably close to a million people with degrees in anthropology. Worldwide, how many do you think there are? 5 million? More? How many of them do you think have any familiarity with the term “Caucasus Hunter Gatherer”? Maybe a hundred? OK, let’s be extraordinarily generous, and say that there are 1,000 people worldwide who have read Jones’ paper or any of the 5 or 6 papers which cited Jones’ work. Does this meet Wikipedia’s notability criteria? One-fifth of one-one-thousandth of 1 percent of the professionals within a field have ever even heard of this term before, and the odds that the term actually stuck with any of them after they finished reading the paper, are probably close to 0% Does this meet Wikipedia’s notability criteria? Guys, you’re literally making-up science because you don’t understand the peer-review process or how academic research is collected and processed. And the arguments you’re making in favor of this article literally sound ridiculous to anyone actually involved in academia, especially anyone with a degree in any of the sciences, and certainly anyone with a degree in anthropology. You’ve taken a couple of blurbs from a single peer-reviewed paper, which weren’t even the focus of that paper, and then the 5 or 6 papers which have simply cited that paper, and written a 1,000 word Wikipedia article about it. And I guarantee, the Wikipedia article is significantly longer that the word-count Jones et al. dedicated toward “Caucasus Hunter Gatherers” in their original peer-reviewed paper from which this data originates. Guys, look. When I was completing my Master’s classwork, I had a class which focused on dentition (which is actually a significant subject in all four branches of anthropology). Anyway, for the term-paper for that class, know how many non-redundant peer-reviewed sources we were required to cite? 20. For a simple 15-page term paper in a semester-long graduate level class, we were required to cite 20 non-redundant peer-reviewed sources. Know how many non-redundant peer-reviewed sources regarding “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers” are available on JSTOR? One- the original Jones et. al paper. Every other source with any mention of "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers" simply cites Jones et. al. If you were required to write a 3 page paper about “Caucasus Hunter Gathers” using 5 non-redundant peer-reviewed sources, you couldn’t do it. It would literally be impossible. And here is where a very significant problem lies with regard to this article. You have 5 sources, but only one of them actually contains the term “Caucasus Hunter Gatherer”, which means that Wikipedia authors themselves have drawn the conclusions about how those other four articles are related to “Caucasus Hunter Gatherers”. In effect, Wikipedia authors are now creating their own scientific conclusions. And this is extraordinarily dangerous, because I know for a fact that none of you have degrees at any level in anthropology. In fact, I would be amazed if any of you have degrees in any of the sciences. In fact, I would be surprised if any of you even have a bachelors degree in any field. Yet, you’re on Wikipedia, drawing your own scientific conclusions based upon your perceptions of how peer-reviewed data correlates to this topic, when none of the papers you’re citing, have the term “Caucasus Hunter Gatherer” in them. And this, IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. Looking back, this is probably why this article bothered me so much 15 months ago when I first began posting to this talk section. The topic of this Wikipedia article is only mentioned in one of the sources, of all of the five sources listed in the reference section of this article. In this article’s reference section, only the Jones paper makes any mention of “Caucasus Hunter Gatherers”. The rest of the papers in the reference section are papers that you all have decided relate to “CHG”. You all are now officially drawing your own scientific conclusions on Wikipedia. And this is what frightens me. If you feel that you are qualified to draw your own scientific conclusions, why didn’t you simply get a degree? People who have no qualifications to do so, are now publishing their own scientific conclusions on Wikipedia. People who are not qualified to do so, are drawing their own scientific conclusions, and then writing about them extensively in what is supposed to be an online encyclopedia. This is extremely troubling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C40:4A00:1D00:E1DC:8B65:7A56:3634 (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
|
Guys, are you kidding me?[edit]
OK, I know I said I was done with this topic before, but I actually just read this article for the first time a few minutes ago. Are you guys serious? This reads like a disjointed conglomeration of random facts a 12 year-old pulled from any paper he could find on Google Scholar. The thread tying all of these citations together (and that's all they are, a random string of citations from various papers) is ridiculously tenuous. Please tell me that you guys are aware that this article is nothing more than a jumble of various summaries of cherry-picked facts from peer-reviewed papers you all have decided relate to this topic. Guys, you couldn't submit this article as a paper for a junior high-school class. Literally, if you were to submit this article as a paper for a class you had when you were 10 years old, you'd get an "F". Guys, how far are you reaching to try to make this a thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnthropologyAye-Whole (talk • contribs) 15:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Oh my Gosh[edit]
I just went through the 18 sources listed in the reference section of this Wikipedia article. Know how many of them actually contain the term "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer"? 4. All the rest either don't contain that term, are blogs which simply cite this Wikipedia article, or are reverts to mirrors of this Wikipedia article on other websites. And the four sources listed in the reference section which do contain the term "Caucasus Hunter Gatherer", can you guess who they cite? Jones, Saag, Haak, Mittnik, and Anthony.
You know what? I'm going to create a new genetic lineage that I'm going to call the "Blurple-Plurple-Snorgs" based upon my observations of 6 individuals I've randomly isolated within the St. Louis Metropolitan-Area. I'm going to write a blog about the Blurple-Plurple-Snorgs, and fill it with a lot of extraneous info vaguely related to other anthro topics. I would greatly appreciate it if you all can let me know when you've created a Wikipedia article for Blurple-Plurple-Snorgs so that I can contribute.
confused[edit]
As most talks already show, this article is substandard, in many senses. Alone the sentencd "The CHG lineage descended from a population that split off the base Western Eurasian lineage very early, around 45,000 years ago, that descended separately to Ust'-Ishim man, Oase1 and European hunter-gatherers; and separated from the "Early Anatolian Farmers" (EAF) lineage later, at 25,000 years ago, during the Last Glacial Maximum." is logically confused.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:F095:349:8B7B:F709 (talk) 05:46, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- The same with "from Ancient North Eurasians and 48% ancestry from Basal Eurasians [1. time], with additional geneflow from a Paleolithic Caucasus/Anatolian source (Dzudzuana; c. 20%) and ANE-like [2. time] ancestry" 2A02:8108:9640:1A68:827:746C:E4B:942 (talk) 07:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Blogs[edit]
In my opinion, links to eurogenes or similar blogs, whether as a reference, note, or external further reading, are totally unsuitable for an encyclopedia, especially when the linked discussion is about a preprint version of a peer reviewed article that we already cite. Anybody else have any opinions about this? Tewdar 06:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
- Absolutely. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:48, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
- Disagree, obviously; Eurogenes provides additional explanations on IE-genetics, and is quite good. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
- Remove them since blogs. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:19, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree, obviously; Eurogenes provides additional explanations on IE-genetics, and is quite good. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the help page).