Talk:Catholicos

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Jacobite Syrian Christian Church[edit]

(1)Content of The Patriarchal Boola No E 149/02 dated July 5, 2002, issued by the Patriarch of Antioch, H.H. Ignatious Zakka I Iwas about formation of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church:-

Apostolic Benediction to our beloved Metropolitans Their Graces Mor Dionosius Thomas the Catholicose Designate, Mor Philaxinose Yuhanon, Mor Themotheos Thomas, Mor Gregorios Joseph, Mor Ivanios Mathews and Mor Koorilose Markose, Kerala, India. According to your request, we hereby accept and appoint you all to the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, which is established under us. We hope that you all will work hard with our faithful there to upkeep the ancient faith and traditions of our Holy Apostolic Church. We extend our Apostolic Blessings to you all. May the grace of God be with you.

(2)Susthathikon of Thomas Mar Dionysius as His Beatitude Baselious Thomas I, the Catholicose of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church by the Patriarch of Antioch, H.H. Ignatious Zakka I (The Patriarchal Boola No.E l60/02):

Apostolic Benediction to our beloved Metropolitans, Venerable Corepiscopos, Esteemed Priests, Reverend Deacons and Respected Faithful of our Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, India. With immense pleasure we inform you the following: Our Jacobite Syrian Christian Association in India at it's General Meeting held on July 6, 2002 unanimously resolved to request us to consecrate and appoint our beloved Metropolitan His Eminence Bar Regesh Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose for the churches which are members of this Association. The Regional Synod of our Jacobite Syrian Christian Church there also endorsed this resolution of the Association and requested us that the wish of our people in India may please be granted. We considered the matter prayerfully and informed all our beloved Metropolitans who are members of our Holy Universal Synod. Majority of Metropolitans gave us their opinion agreeing to the consecration of His Eminence Mor Dionysius Thomas as Catholicose. On July 26, 2002 during the Holy Qurbana celebrated by us at our St. Peter's and St. Paul's Patriarchal Cathedral at the St. Aphrem Monastery, Marrat Seydnaya, Damascus, Syria, we consecrated His Eminence Mor Dionysios Thomas as the Catholicose of our Jacobite Syrian Christian Church in India. By our mediation, the Holy Spirit called him "Baslios", Many Metropolitans, Priests, Monks, Deacons and the faithful from several places around the world attended this consecration ceremony. Their Eminences the Metropolitans who shared with us in this consecration have put their names and signatures below. Our self, other Fathers and all other Clergy and people with one accord proclaimed aloud "OXIOS" for Mor Baselios Thomas I to be the Catholicose of our Jacobite Syrian Christian Church in India...

--Aby John Vannilam 12:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Clean Up Required[edit]

This article is in need of significant clean up. The formatting of titles and organization of sections needs to be cleaned up to conform with the ]]Wikipedia:Manual of Style]]. The article requires copy editing for spelling and grammar, and some text needs to be wikified. Dgf32 (talk) 21:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This advice seems rather vague. Carlos_X (talk) 19:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of the RC church[edit]

An editor has apparently defined the Roman Catholic Church as a "communion of 22 churches." This would definitely need a very very good reference and would be a surprise to not only the RC church article but the WikiProject Catholic folks as well. Student7 (talk) 23:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Roman_Catholic mentions that the Catholic Church is a communion of 23 Churches. Would this reference be enough?

Yes. Strange. Not something many Catholics have ever heard, however.Student7 (talk) 16:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nestorian[edit]

Do the churches of the East "emphasize the disunion between the human and divine natures of Jesus?" This was known as "Nestorian" since it is a unique belief. Is there some other name for it that isn't considered pejorative? Nearly all theological beliefs that are unique have names. Student7 (talk) 20:14, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is not unique, and the Churches of the East generally deny that their view was that of the Patriarch Nestorius, almost as fervently as they affirm that it was held by the Church Fathers of the second and third century. Whether they are right or wrong in either of these is largely a question of point of view. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy issue[edit]

I have just completed the CE on this article and was struck by the fact that there are two taxonomies used: one with the natural progression of the religious developments and then a second one that is based on geographic or country affiliations. I have started the migration to a single method, but do not have sufficient knowledge of this subject to continue. Please consolidate the presentation to facilitate understanding. Sincerely Bullock ✉ 15:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help.
Can the two issues be separated? Both are really outgrowths of politics IMO. So groups separated for supposedly "religious" reasons, which often breaks down into political reasons. The "non-Chalcedonians" (to take one small division) didn't want to attend Chalcedon and convinced themselves and the handful of others smart enough to understand the religious issues, that they were "right", the other side wrong, nevermind the vote. The other issue was nationalistic. "Greek Orthodox", "Indian Orthodox", etc. Don't see how these can be separated into anything more logical. These purely nationalistic divisions are a bit easier to understand. At least until you find "Indian Orthodox" in the US! I suppose there are division by ritual, East Syrian and West Syrian. Again, I suspect political, with one side not liking somebody or seeing a political advantage in associating with one faction or another. Student7 (talk) 19:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add to wat student7 has said. Its not just national politics of today but of centuries before. You can find Syriac Orthodox men in India as well and Indian Orthodox, just as in America there are almost all the sects. Divisions are mostly political and rarely dogmatic. -ܠܝܓܘ Liju ലിജു לג"ו (talk) 14:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Catholicos/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Can someone disambiguate the meaning of "catholicos"? I find "universal" and "general" quite confusing. Is this an adjective "of the universe", "for the universe". "general", in the meaning "head (like in army)" or in the meaning "generic, common". If "catholicos" stands for "head", why "universal"? If "catholicos" stands for "generic, common", why head of the church would be called that? 193.32.3.83 09:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 09:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 11:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Cleemis Thottunkal[edit]

Cleemis Thottunkal section under Syro-Malankara Church - there is some very, very fragile reasoning and weasel-wording here to confer the title of Catholicos. As I understand it, the Holy See does not concede this title whatsoever to him, despite his elevation to the Cardinalate, and so I do not believe we should be using the title in an unqualified sense either. I will be examining the sources more closely, but of course, the Annuario is the gold standard and has the final say on his actual title(s). (PS): "Baselios" is an honorific title and not a personal name, so I'll be removing it where it is not permitted by the MOS. Elizium23 (talk) 06:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Syro-Malankara Catholic Church does, it seems, use the title in conformity with a Syriac Orthodox Church tradition foor its Indian branch of that church antedating the request by some of its bishops for union with the Catholic Church (which they meant not just for themselves personally but for the Church of which they were part). It seems that they look on its use as an internal matter, not as a papally conferred title. As "chorepiscopos" is used both by the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East. It also seems that "Basileios" is taken and used as part of a name rather than as a title by the head of the Indian section, just as "Ignatius" is used as part of the name of each successive patriarch. Bealtainemí (talk) 08:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bealtainemí, WP:RS would be illuminating at this juncture. The fog around "Baselios" is thick. I have been assured it is an honorific. Finding sources to explain how it is used, not so much. It might indeed be difficult to explain to outsiders, in English, and it might be difficult for us to determine, from a description, whether or not it meets the criteria of MOS:HON.
As for "Catholicos", I suppose the question becomes one of self-determination. Can a sui iuris Church accrue to itself an honorific title that basically means, "Patriarch" or "Pope"? The Catholicos is unquestionably an exalted title. The relationship between Eastern Catholic Churches and the Holy See is murky and somewhat tenuous, so perhaps the Holy See is lasseiz-faire about this matter. Once again, WP:RS would definitely move the conversation forward. Elizium23 (talk) 08:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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