Talk:Art Tatum

Archives (Index)

2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021

This page is archived by ClueBot III.

deleted NPR broadcast

[1] refers to a bunch of audio clips that might be interesting but are now 404. Might be worth trying to dig up copies. The text mentions thatTatum liked to play cards. I wonder how he did that without being able to see them. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

I've gone and fixed the link. Graham87 09:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Art Tatum/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aza24 (talk · contribs) 02:08, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Claiming this review. I love Tatum (my userpage links one of his pieces!), so this should surely be an enjoyable review. Thanks for your work here, expect comments in the next 2–3 days. Aza24 (talk) 02:08, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Apologies, I've been busier than expected, I hope to get to this on the weekend at the latest. Aza24 (talk) 05:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

No problem. I'll be around. EddieHugh (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Prose and coverage

Lead

• More of an optional suggestion, but short sentences as the first paragraph are less than ideal afaik. For example, the google search preview is a little awkward in the current state and hovering over the link Art Tatum gives a preview that appears a little empty, as a result of displaying a single sentence. Something to think about, I almost wonder if the final paragraph could just be moved to after "greatest in his field."

I'll try it there and we can see how it looks after any other changes have been made. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I think for me, personally, it works better now—but I will leave this up to you, if you want to change it back. The other part of my reasoning was that the article may not be so long as to warrant a four paragraph lead.

I agree – it helps to draw out more of what he was known for. EddieHugh (talk) 21:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• I thought that Tatum was rather famous for his partial blindness, could this be worked into the lead perhaps?

I'm reluctant to do this. Tatum wasn't famous for being blind. He was famous for being a pianist. He also happened to be blind. I view highlighting such things as implying that someone was successful in a chosen pursuit despite not having something that most others take for granted. It's a bit patronising and can be a form of discrimination. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Understood, and agreed. Just thought I'd mention it. Aza24 (talk) 05:00, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Tatum's visual impairment should be recognized from the start because he was unable to read music or see the keyboard like other piano players, which made his "musicality" even more remarkable. In addition, the article is not about Tatum's musicality; it's about Art Tatum. Also, check out articles about other visually impaired musicians such as Andrea Bocelli, whose impairment is identified from the beginning. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 08:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 08:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• Some link ideas: Alcohol and health to "damage his health"; Jazz trio; Jazz piano to "his field"; virtuoso

I'm at the severe end of the MOS:OL enforcers. Linking jazz piano is redundant when jazz is already linked; same for jazz trio; virtuoso is a common word; alcohol and health... maybe, but the connection is unlikely to be news to readers. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about your linking philosophy; I'll keep that in mind for my further comments. I would still say that Jazz trio would be worth linking; most readers will not know that a jazz trio consists of a very specific group of instruments, they'll just assume it could be any three.

• Surely "Pianist" (or "Jazz pianist") would be more to the point in the infobox (rather than "Musician" I mean)

This is normal in Infobox musical artist. There's Instrument for... instrument, genre for genre; 'jazz pianist' would therefore be repetition. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Good point, I'm not familiar with this type of infobox

• If "stride" is important enough to put in the infobox, I wonder if it can be included in the lead
  • With this in mind, I'm wishing there was a sentence about his influences in the lead, perhaps you could have something like "Drawing from the influence of both the stride style of Fats Waller and James P. Johnson and the harmonies of Debussy and Ravel, Tatum developed a highly-individualistic style. (?)

I'll look at something like that and update here later. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Looking at the sources (and the body here), putting Debussy and Ravel in the lead is probably undue. Positioning a separate influences sentence is also difficult, so, not wanting to attempt a rewrite of the lead, I added "far beyond his initial stride influences" to the final sentence of para 1. I think it establishes a contrast with the final part of the sentence, which also covers the classical influence without listing names. EddieHugh (talk) 21:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Early life

• Karl's future is mentioned, anything brief about Arline available?

I don't see anything apart from that she became Arline Taylor, so nothing worth mentioning. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "he could only see things that were close to him, and perhaps could distinguish colors" right?

Not really: the operations were to improve his sight, whereas 'only' would imply that they made it worse. Reworded to clarify. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• You start sentences with "He" quite a bit, which I don't think is a big issue, but I would advise against doing it twice in a row (e.g. "He was there for... He had formal..."

True – an artefact of how I usually assemble article content. Changed that one and I'll look at others. EddieHugh (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I've reworded a few more now. EddieHugh (talk) 22:49, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Later life and career

• to play last, after all the others had finished. works, but still sounds a little redundant to my ears, what do you think?

True. Cut "last,". EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• "two sides", "more side" etc., assuming this is slang for something, could a link or rephrase clarify here? I don't think the average reader will be familiar with the term; maybe a Wiktionary link could help in this case (if a WP article doesn't exist)? Hopefully this wouldn't be too at odds with your linking approach :)

Common terminology to refer to releases of that time; probably more appropriate than "single". I've added a link. EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• "king of jazz piano players"—seems a little unencyclopedic (and a bit WP:PEACOCK); is there a more nuanced way to say this? E.g. "most-respected" "most-prominent" "leading jazz piano player of his time" or something?

It is used in the source, but fair point. How's "pre-eminent"? EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Good solution, I would think Aza24 (talk) 08:10, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

• "lived as well as their incomes permitted"—seems vague, I get the sentiment (I think?), but an adjective (extravagant?

"Lavishly" to me feels a notch down from "extravagantly", and thus more accurate, so I added that. EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• "by his biographer" may as well say who we're talking about in the text; this phrasing sounds to me like this is his only biographer

There is only one if we mean books that are not self-published, but added for clarity. EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• "A fellow pianist" assuming we don't know who this is? Just thought I'd check

Mel Clement. Non-notable (meaning no Wikipedia article). I tend not to add such details, but put it in if you prefer. EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• Unsure about this, but perhaps worth noting his trio combo was atypical?

I think that trios were unusual at that time, with or without drums. I think that the association with piano, bass, drums came later. EddieHugh (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Following a health warning"–did something specific happen, or the doctor warn him? Seems a bit vague

The source is a bit vague, too. Reworded to "Following a deterioration in his health", which is still non-specific, but easier to understand. EddieHugh (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Tatum was not linked to drug use." – well, alcohol is a drug, perhaps rephrase?

Changed to "Tatum was not linked to the use of illegal drugs". EddieHugh (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Style of technique

• "that Tatum often did not modify his playing when in a band."—this may not seem like a "bad" thing to the average reader. Perhaps it can be clarified; I assume you're saying he still played like he was the only one on stage, or did not adjust his playing to suite a collaborative environment?
  • okay now I'm reading the next line "A general criticism of him in a group setting..." and it seems to be the same criticism as the above, but they're presented as different?

Yes, they were the same thing, so now combined, with some punctuation changes to avoid a long sentence. EddieHugh (talk) 22:15, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Other

• I don't really have much else to say about the rest of the prose, really fantastically written! I glanced through his Grove biography (which is a little pathetic...), and wonder if his 1944 concert at the MET would be worth mentioning? Seems significant for a Jazz pianist of the time.

Thanks. The lack of good summaries of the life of such a major figure was one motivation for my improving this one. The MET fits in, although the content of the detail implies that it wasn't such a big thing. EddieHugh (talk) 18:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

MOS

• The year ranges alone are less than helpful as section headers. I wonder if a small amount of context can be added e.g. "1927–1937: Developing musician" (I'm not really sure how to sum up the first section) but the section heading names of Berlioz and Monteverdi come to mind.

I have done what you suggest in other articles, especially where there have been clear physical location changes. Art Farmer is an example. For Tatum, most of his adult life was similar: spend a few months in one place; play a variety of venues; record a bit; move on. As a reader, I dislike section headings that pick out one aspect from the contents: that's an inaccurate summary and not helpful. We could split the content further to chunk it by events, but there'd be some short sections. Doing it with years is like punctuation for the reader. EddieHugh (talk) 19:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Recognition outside music"—not sure if this is the right name here, especially since the 2nd one is not "outside of music"

Are (computational) musicologists in music? Changed to "Other forms of recognition", but please change it if you can think of something better. EddieHugh (talk) 18:20, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I would say so, musicology is musicology. Maybe "Memorials"? No title seems ideal, but I don't think it's an outstanding issue. Aza24 (talk) 08:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Sources

• No issues here Aza24 (talk) 05:08, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Passing

I've found all of my issues appropriately addressed; I am confident this article meets the GA criteria. Congratulations on a fantastic job—I see that you mostly do GAs but I would encourage you to bring this to PR and than FAC... you never know :) Passing now. Aza24 (talk) 08:15, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing. There are some (recording) details that I'd want to check and probably incorporate before attempting FAC, although Elmo Hope would be a more likely first attempt. EddieHugh (talk) 14:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your incredible work - I have idolised Tatum since I was a child, and this page is an incredible tribute. Many thanks. No Swan So Fine (talk) 22:34, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Rainey vs. Reamy

A contributor who claims to be a cousin of Tatum's classical piano instructor tried to edit the article to change the name of the instructor from Rainey to Reamy, but without any citation. (The contributor also claimed that Reamy played boogie-woogie in Toledo nightclubs, which inspired Tatum's jazz.) A Google search reveals a 1940 U.S. Census entry for an "Overton J. Reamy", age 59, living in Toledo, Ohio. https://www.archives.com/1940-census/overton-reamy-oh-98178486, which could lend creedence to the Reamy spelling and account. A Google search for "Overton G. Rainey" turns up a lot of results, but can they all have originated from the "Rainey" spelling in Lester's bio? 98.244.137.86 (talk) 18:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 18:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

We need reliable sources (WP:RS). Do any discuss this and prefer 'Reamy'? Lester (p37) states that Rainey was "black" and the census states that Reamy was "white", so something's wrong. The census page has something like "music teacher" for his occupation, so it's possible, but we need RS. EddieHugh (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

This "Find a Grave" webpage identifies "Overton James 'Ovie' Reamy" (1881 - 1957) as a blind musician and entertainer in Toledo, and contains a photo of him playing piano, and also contains part of an obituary which identifies him as Art Tatum's piano teacher: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122505050/overton-james-reamy

Also, "Overton J Reamy" is listed as being on the Board of Trustees for the Perkins School for the Blind or some related institution between 1920 and 1927: https://archive.org/stream/perkinsschoolfo202704perk/perkinsschoolfo202704perk_djvu.txt

In addition, the State of Ohio Annual Reports for 1909 lists "Overton J. Reamy" as a Toledo musician having graduated from the Ohio State School for the Blind in 1902: https://books.google.com/books?id=uoowAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=%22Overton+J.+Reamy%22&source=bl&ots=-UKLdC4rgp&sig=ACfU3U1ihHnPUZtqbrat41hRUfEbwk0ktA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_ouu__-P2AhXPVzABHaydAgsQ6AF6BAgGEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Overton%20J.%20Reamy%22&f=false

I believe these sources are sufficient to drop of footnote in the article regarding the spelling of his name. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 15:03, 26 March 2022 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 15:03, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Find a Grave isn't a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. We're close to having evidence to justify having a footnote, but for now we have what's too close to WP:SYNTH and/or the more general WP:OR. EddieHugh (talk) 20:32, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Downbeat Magazine

The main article states that Tatum won the Downbeat Magazine Critics' Poll for three years in a row from 1954, and cites at footnote 118 to Lester's book. However, the Wikipedia article on Downbeat Magazine states that the Critics' Poll did not commence until 1961. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DownBeat — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.137.86 (talk) 19:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article is about the Hall of Fame votes. The Tatum article states "Tatum was inducted into the DownBeat Jazz Hall of Fame in 1964". That's different from the poll that he topped three years in a row ("for pianists"): DownBeat in 2021 referred to that year's poll being the sixty-ninth, putting the first in 1953. EddieHugh (talk) 18:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Good catch. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Vision Should be in Lead

I think his issues seeing should be in the lead. I would add it but better someone who can integrate it properly. I think it is way more notable than his excessive drinking. Hausa warrior (talk) 07:23, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think so. His drinking was part of his chosen (and culturally influenced) lifestyle; his near-blindness was something he was largely born with. Thankfully, the world is moving on from highlighting what people can't do, and instead focusing on what they can do and choose to do. EddieHugh (talk) 20:09, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Hausa warrior that Tatum's vision impairment should be in the lede. Compare, for example, the wiki lede on Michel Petrucciani: "Michel Petrucciani (French pronunciation: ​[miʃɛl petʁutʃani]; Italian: [petrutˈtʃaːni]; 28 December 1962 – 6 January 1999) was a French jazz pianist. From birth he had osteogenesis imperfecta, a genetic disease that causes brittle bones and, in his case, short stature. He became one of the most accomplished jazz pianists of his generation despite his health condition and relatively short life."

See also wiki article on Andrea Boccelli:

"Andrea Bocelli OMRI OMDSM (Italian: [anˈdrɛːa boˈtʃɛlli]; born 22 September 1958) is an Italian tenor. He was born visually impaired, with congenital glaucoma, and at the age of 12, Bocelli became completely blind, following a brain hemorrhage resulting from a football accident. After performing evenings in piano bars and competing in local singing contests, Bocelli signed his first recording contract with the Sugar Music label. He rose to fame in 1994, winning the newcomer’s section of the 44th Sanremo Music Festival performing "Il mare calmo della sera"."

Tatum's visual impairment should be recognized from the start because he was unable to read music or see the keyboard like other piano players, which made his "musicality" even more remarkable. In addition, the article is not about Tatum's musicality; it's about Art Tatum.

98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

yes

98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 13:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I still haven't made up my mind in one way or another and am, needless to say, willing to accept the consensus reached here. That said, User talk:EddieHugh makes an excellent point about "the world is moving on from highlighting what people can't do, and instead focusing on what they can do and choose to do". So, was Tatum an incredible musician because he was partially sighted? In other words, did his limited vision make him a better musician? Or was he a good musician who just happened to be partially sighted...? We'll obviously never know... But we can surmise.

The main reference used for this article (Lester 1994) actually points out that Tatum "disliked having attention drawn to his blindness...".

As for comparing the introduction to those of other articles on other musicians with disabilities (medical model of disability) or on other disabled musicians (social model of disability), that's not how these discussions should be focused. The inclusion or not of his impaired vision in the introduction should be based on how relevant it is in this specific case. Obviously it should be mentioned in article at some stage, which of course it is, but not necessarily right up there at the beginning.

On the other hand, to make broad, sweeping statements about how "he was unable to read music or see the keyboard like other piano players..." is pure conjecture. While we often read that he was a blind musician, which merely highlights the limited knowledge that any given writer/journalist/biographer has regarding blindness and visual impairment, we know he studied music at school using Braille, so we can safely assume he was well aware of, at least, the rudiments of music theory. On the other hand, pianists don't actually need to see the keyboard. Which might explain why there are so many notable blind pianists... totally blind musicians, not partially sighted. While we're surmising, the "fact" that many (most?) of them play jazz and blues, for example, may merely respond these genres [possibly] relying more on the feel for the music than on the sight reading required of classical music... --Technopat (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Copying my comment from the GA review two years ago: "Tatum wasn't famous for being blind. He was famous for being a pianist. He also happened to be blind. I view highlighting such things as implying that someone was successful in a chosen pursuit despite not having something that most others take for granted. It's a bit patronising and can be a form of discrimination." EddieHugh (talk) 17:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

There's no problem at Stevie Wonder? Or at Ray Charles? What's different here? Thanks. 86.187.163.17 (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Ask there. Lennie Tristano, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, George Shearing, Marcus Roberts, etc, etc, etc don't mention it in the lead. As Technopat points out, 'another article does it differently' isn't a great argument. EddieHugh (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know why its so important to include in the lead. Tatum wasn't notable for being blind. He wasn't even notable for being a "blind pianist". He was notable for being a pianist... that's it? Anyways, there is a long tradition of blind keyboard players in classical music and jazz, so this kind of thing has existed for a while. I worry that too much emphasis on his blindness creates the pseudo-historical that he overcame some great illness and triumphed into musical excellence (see this article for instance). Aza24 (talk) 17:14, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

What some are saying is that Tatum's playing would be just as accomplished and he would be just as acclaimed, even if his eyesight had been normal. That may or may not be true, but the facts are that he was mostly blind and was a superlative musician. To say that he was not famous for being blind is speculative. Did anyone take a survey to determine that? The notion that a person's disability should not be highlighted because we are becoming more enlightened is a noble sentiment. Yes, blind people don't want to be defined by their disability, nor do they want to be discriminated against for it. But not recognizing it, or saying "oh, there have been plenty of blind pianists", could be seen as minimizing or downplaying a serious disability. Can a sighted person determine whether being blind is a significant impediment? Anyway, in view of the divergent opinions, and with apologies to Art, I will let it rest. 98.244.137.86 (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)kolef98.244.137.86 (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)